Don’t Sink To Horse Clicker Training Level
A video of a horse running in the ocean “following” a person; so loyal, so majestic. Isn’t that what everyone wants from their horse, a true companion, a relationship, a bond?
Of course you want a relationship with your horse, you want your horse to respect you, trust you, and enjoy your company (both riding and on the ground). Are there “win-win” ways to create this “special” relationship with your equine through “totally positive” messages?
Well, there is a new wave of “natural” horsemanship that wants you to believe just that. You too can have a true bond with your horse, a “special” relationship – with clicker training. But in reality, what you are really creating with horse clicker training is a 1200 pound dog. Not a good dog either, a food motivated animal, who has no true respect for you, only an expectation of treats. And what else do you get with horse clicker training? BONUS! If you have a gelding, your “special” clicker training relationship may also include erections every time you “work” with him.
Wow, now that is groundbreaking training!
No, not really. Every animal on the planet can be “trained”, or more accurately, “conditioned” with treats. You can even do this with people. Does that mean you have a trained, obedient animal? No, you have an animal that does not understand consequences (good or bad). Clicker training conditions your animal to follow food, not you. You have “bonded” your animal to treats, not you. There is nothing special, unique, or beneficial to this “training” (again, other than a giant dog with erections).
If you have a gelding, your “special” clicker training relationship may also include erections every time you “work” with him.
Now, let’s go back to that horse running in the ocean “following” a person. Not so loyal or majestic. This horse isn’t following a person; this horse is CHASING a person for FOOD. There is a huge difference between a horse following a person because of a bond, loyalty, herd status, or respect and a horse chasing a person for treats. The former can happen, but for safety of yourself and your horse, its just not a good idea. The latter is just downright stupid.
Clicker training a horse is only for that special horse. The horse you don’t want to actually do anything with besides, maybe trail ride and of course, do tricks. Don’t plan on the clicker trained horse being good for anyone else, and don’t plan on the clicker trained horse to have any respect for any kind of boundaries. If you are lucky and you don’t have a horse with any kind of brain, yes, clicker training will work for that slow horse. With clicker training, you can absolutely create a large pet that is good for circus shows, and maybe, stupid pet tricks (“Here we come, Letterman!”)
A clicker trained horse is not going to excel in any athletic discipline. A clicker trained horse is not going to be a truly safe horse; the clicker trained horse is conditioned to do tricks for treats. The clicker trained horse is defined by its uncanny ability to distinguish humans by their food carrying (or not) presence and perform tricks (even if not asked) just to get that food.
If you have a horse that is inquisitive, perhaps even a horse who also suffers from little ADD, clicker training this horse would be suicide. With clicker training, you would wind up with a horse who will not only take your hand off, but who will also become severely aggressive with absolutely no respect for people. Because with clicker training, horses never, ever receive negative reinforcement (only “positive”, treat based reinforcement – the basis of clicker training), the “win-win relationship” coined by many clicker “trainers” would turn this once inquisitive horse into 1200 pounds of disrespect.
A clicker trained horse is not a truly safe horse; the clicker trained horse is conditioned to do tricks for treats.
Think about clicker training and why it was created. Clicker training started with dolphins in oceanariums and aquariums. The reason dolphins were clicker trained was not to build relationships with their “trainers” (or more accurately, their caretakers). Clicker “conditioning”, in its inception, was for a purpose. Clicker training was essential for dolphin husbandry. Researchers found out quickly caged dolphins needed routine vet care and daily health inspections. Putting stress on a dolphin in an already unnatural environment with uncooperative restraint, on a daily basis (just to care for them) was counterintuitive. Instead, handlers started “training” dolphins by using a clickers and treats to positively reinforce behaviors the dolphins where already performing. Conversely, clicker training also turned out to be helpful in exercise, to alleviate boredom, and to allow aquariums to increase revenue by putting on shows.
This method was not created to so trainers could enjoy a bond with the dolphin; it was created out of necessity by using already natural behaviors of the dolphins. Last time I checked, it was not natural for a horse to pose in positions, Spanish walk, or sit. Horses do not need clicker training, nor is clicker training beneficial for the horse. Additionally, handlers of the clicker trained horse, outside of the clicker trainer, are not grateful of the said clicker training.
Clicker training was developed for dolphins in captivity, a proven way to help handlers manipulate these animals safely; it was not developed for horse training. If you are looking for a way to bond with your horse, create a trusting relationship, or overcome some training obstacles, there are many effective ways to do this without resorting to a treat based training system.
Please don’t clicker train your horse. Use common sense, treat your horse with respect, and always command respect from your horse. All this can be done without treats and also without cruelty; two extremes that are completely unnecessary.
I thought I read somewhere that a GrandPrix dressage rider used clicker training for her horses. I can’t find it now though.
There are a group of people that do clicker training with their horses at my barn. All the geldings do get erections and that is really strange.
I was gonna try it on my horse but my trainer said that he is already too mouthy so I’m not even allowed to give him carrots or any other treats from my hand. Only in his feed bucket.
That would be Stephen Peters
Also Sue Blinks
You obviously don’t know anything about clicker training. It is proven that it does not cause horses to be mouthy. Clicker training is a great experience for both the horse and the owner to bond and have a rewarding experience every time they work with each other.
Thank you for your comment Naturalhorse. Clicker training may not CAUSE a horse to be mouthy, but it can amplify mouthy behavior in an already mouthy horse.
From the sounds of ^^horselover^^’s horse, clicker training would not be a good idea and her trainer is probably well aware of this.
It never mentions anywhere that you actually have to give the horse a treat from your hand. You can place it on the ground, or in a bucket. Just because your horse is mouthy is no reason to be dominant to it.
Im not sure what to say here because i see it as a EXTRA thing to teach your horse AFTER you have a TRUE BOND! so i feel with the right training it could be very effective!
You don’t have to use food in clicker training. You can use *anything* the animal likes. It can be play time, it can be touch, it can be games. The reinforcer *does not* need to be food.
And you can very easily teach your horse to work away from you *even if* you are reinforcing the behavior with food. It’s super simple — the horse looks away, you click and treat (remember, doesn’t have to be food, but in this example, I’m talking about if you are indeed using food). So the horse turns his head away and you click and deliver a tiny piece of carrot (or whatever your horse loves).
He turns his head again, this time a smidge more than the last; click and treat again. If the horse doesn’t turn his head away again, no click and treat. But chances are, the horse is enjoying this new little game and will try to get you to click. So he turns his head further. You’ll click and treat.
After a few minutes of this, your horse is getting the hang of this game and actually takes a step away. Click and treat. Before you know it, your horse is 5 feet away, waiting for the click. You can continue this indefinitely — well, so long as your horse isn’t so far away he can’t hear the click!
You can also teach your horse to target a tennis ball at the end of a stick (or whatever). (The horse touches the object with his nose.) You can then use that target to move the horse around without touching him or without having any equipment on the horse. Targeting is also a useful tool for horses that spook at the sight of novel object — teach them to touch the object with his nose and lots of the scariness of that object goes away because you’ve given the horse a way to interact with this “scary” object (a way that’s been reinforced in the past, so it makes it easier for the horse to “believe you” that it’s ok to touch this thing).
It’s not uncommon for people to believe that food has to be the reinforcer or that food will kill training. Read Alexandra Kurland’s clicker training book for horses. It’s tough to imagine a clicker working on a horse, but I’ve seen it. I’ve done it. It’s pretty cool.
Forgot to add this link, for anyone who wants to look at clicker training in depth a little more: http://www.clickertraining.com
This is the section devoted to horses: http://www.clickertraining.com/taxonomy/term/3
There are lots of good articles there about clicker training, clicker myths, and lots of good info!
Take a look around and see if there’s any of it you might want to try (or think about trying!) with your horse. You don’t have to jump in the deep end right away, you can try a little bit of it at first.
I usually agree wholeheartedly with Citizen K, but here I beg to differ – Clicker Training has worked wonders with my gelding with nary ONE erection.
I’ve had this Morgan gelding since he turned four. He is bold and calm, but he knew almost nothing. He is extremely intelligent – everyone comments on it – and he was getting bored and wanted to “liven” things up. He didn’t mean any harm, but needless to say, I needed to give him something constructive to do with his brain power.
Clicker Training was PERFECT. This horse wants – no he NEEDS – to offer behavior, to express himself. With Clicker Training, he was motivated to figure out what behavior I wanted him to offer – and he did, almost instantly.
I’ve been doing this for the last ummm… four years or so, and he almost never takes a wrong step. And if he does, I just ignore it and he busts his buns to figure out what he did wrong and how to fix it. All this for a sliver of carrot!
When I first got him, he wasn’t as respectful of my space as I preferred. Boy, he is now. Those wheels are always turning, trying to figure out what will please me – even if it’s only standing still. I’ve never taught him tricks – just everyday stuff.
Actually, I hardly use the actual carrot slivers under saddle any more – just when he does something really outstanding or brand new for him.
I don’t find it any problem having a small pack of carrot chips. He NEVER tries to grab it – or anything else. He knows that will never get him what he wants. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a win-win situation for both of us, and we have a wonderful time together.
It sounds like some people have had success with clicker training done properly, but so many people do it improperly and there are so many non-clicker-training methods of training horses that also work effectively enough to nullify clicker-training in most cases. I have seen it work time and again for training horses to do tricks–like nod yes or no, lift their feet and give kisses. Under saddle is where I think it’s silly. To get a horse “on the bit”, all one should need is a properly schooled leg, a properly schooled hand and a bit that correctly fits the strength and mouth of the horse. When the horse is moving correctly, the hand and leg should be still and the horse should be free of leg and hand pressure. That in itself should be a reward. It’s the tried-and-true “bug em and leave em alone” that horse trainers have been using for centuries in almost all riding disciplines. You apply pressure when the horse is resisting and then remove pressure when they respond.
That being said, I think people should do whatever works for their horse and if clicker training is the only thing that works, then do it. I have seen more mouthy horses with clicker training than with no clicker training and I think it’s due in part to the fact that middle-aged first-time horse owners who view their horses more as dogs than as horses. They don’t understand that they are supposed to not reward mouthy behavior because they are too inexperienced to discern the mouthy behavior from the non-mouthy behavior. They also think that food reinforcement is the only option. These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary. In the same respect, some horses with bad ground manners do it because they are bossing their owners around. Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating.
The way I see it, I could spend a month clicker training my horse to walk properly on a lead line or I can go get a crop and a nose chain and jerk down on his nose a few times and whack him on the chest a few times and be done.
Examples given of inexperienced new horse owners trying to use clicker training unsuccessfully are not congruent. Why would they do any better with other methods?
There is also no reason a horse cannot be ridden in contact, and be taught to respond to the leg using -R, the tradition methods, and nor reason it cannot be done with +R. It IS done.
Far too many presumptions about what clicker training is and is not, though I see a few folks that have experience with it and understand it’s effectiveness.
I have never seen a properly taught clicker using horse handler go back to traditional methods once they gain skill with the clicker. I have seen not ONE complaint listed here that will not succumb to proper use of +R behavior marker conditioning. Not ONE.
Some examples given are exactly what I have found. That mouthy horses stop being mouthy. That all types of horses respond well to clicker training.
When the horse discovers the two way communication possible with +R work many bad behaviors end of themselves. No training required. That is because many of the problems we have in traditional training (and I had a 20 year professional career in such methods) come from the horse not understanding what is wanted of him until he has been pressured many times, and punished as well.
No, horses that have not gotten “consequences,” for bad behavior do not become demons. They just get clicked for the behavior that overrides the bad behavior. In other words, just as in good parenting, we catch them being good, or give them something to do that nullifies the unwanted behavior – yes, even tricks if that’s what it takes.
A horse can’t very kick you if he is taught that the urge to kick is replaced by an urge to kneel, or turn a circle, or bow.
After 20 years I quite horsework precisely because I was getting too good at my work using pressure and punishment. I could read the horse too well and I did not like what I saw.
But five years ago I agreed to work with a very bad Morgan gelding that had thrown a rider and broken her back – shying and bolting at a burnt stump on a trail ride.
I decide to learn clicker training thinking it might augment what I already new about bomb proofing … it didn’t … it replaced it. In an hour I taught him, as one poster points out, to touch what he feared, and from there on it was all easy. He got it.
Not just THAT object, but any object spooked him because a source of approval and a treat if he would touch it. Pretty soon he was running around looking for things that “spooked,” him. On the third day of training on a ride waving an umbrella around I saw ahead on the trail a rotten deer hide. I closed the umbrella (I need not have) and let him amble on, me doing my sack of potatoes seat, slopping all over.
He walked up to it with no cue no pressure no urging no “pressure release,” no approach and retreat (you see the clinicians doing these things and putting the horse through hell and subjugation) just curiosity to see if touching the spooking thing would produce a treat.
It did of course.
We went through old logging camp wrecking yards, spooky stuff, and along the highway where logging trucks roared by. Nothing from him but curiosity.
I even brought out a little singlefoot in this horse when I caught it one day quite by accident and thought to click and treat it. Eventually I taught him a little spin, though he wasn’t built much for it. He drug lines of plastic jugs and tarps even getting tangled up in gear (an offside billet on a borrowed saddle parted) around his hind legs and slammed to a stop when I dropped the line … yes, DROPPED the lead line, a clicker taught cue to halt and halt right now. I now teach all horses this particular cue.
Tricks? Only? I don’t think so. Want to see a vid on his umbrella and rotten deer hide work?
I’ll post them on Peggy Hogan’s The Best Whisper is a Click.
Please don’t be misled by fear based urging to not train your horse with a clicker. Just get a good teacher.
By the way, I was 71 years old when I worked with the Morgan gelding, five years ago. I’ve worked with others since.
Everyone – I have to say that I find some of the anti-clicker comments insulting and demeaning. If you haven’t read Alexandra Kurland’s clicker training book for horses, and you haven’t seen the results of clicker training PROPERLY done, then, please, don’t be sarcastic and write us off as “trick trainers” – I’ve never taught ANY horse ANY tricks – or “middle aged first time horsey owner idiots” – personally, I’ve owned horses for over 30 years.
Speaking your mind is great, but let’s can the sarcasm, please.
It’s not an erection, it’s dropping from relaxation.
I use a little bit of both, but use a lot of clicker training on my abuse case. Alexandra Kurland trained a miniature horse to be a guide horse for a blind woman using only clicker training, so to state that no horses can be performance horses or do anything other than tricks is simply not so. You obviously have never seen a clicker trained horse in action nor do you have even a modicum of understanding in how it works. You are making statements that you can’t back up. There are plenty of horses out there doing jobs and doing them well that are clicker trained. I’ve had to fix a lot more horses that were trained using negative, abusive methods than I ever have with a horse that was trained using positive methods. I’ll take a horse who tries to learn and tries to offer you what you want, then one that is sour, beaten down and only working to keep from being hit.
Wow, you are a very narrow minded person – what makes you so right? – cannot see your bio here anywhere? Me? I am a clicker trainer, am middle aged and have owned horses all my life and my family is in the TB business..and have been using clicker for over 15 years – I am amazed to hear it is the ‘new’ thing! I am also a lawyer and a psychologist; so some may think I can at least read reasonably well and I am not ignorant and would not make negative comments on any style of training or training aids if they were used correctly. I have seen allot of bad training- probably even some you subscribe to, but I would not suggest that the method is bad for all – only those who do not use it correctly.
Shame you dont get out and about a little more and see true clicker trainers in action. Sorry, I dont run my horse up and down a beach- but if I wanted to I could – without excessive negative reinforcement. You also seem to have missed the point about clicker – it is not a ‘system’ as such it is a marker signal to tell your horse that he/she is on the right path…I dont use treats to ride, I only use treats now and again for fun (gee sorry that must also be a contradiction in your mind, that my horses actually are happy and dont mug and are not mouthy). My horses reward for doing what I ask is a rub on the wither…all taught with clicker training. Oops and yes my geldings do ‘drop’…not an erection LOL- just a sign to tell me they are relaxed. Why dont you go and see a real clicker trainer in action and report on that – give your audience the pros and cons of all manners of training so they can make informed judgments about all things horsey. Of course I am assuming you have the best intentions for horses – why knock something that works in the right hands – oh and in case you dont know – one of our best Aussie riders who represents our country in the para olympics is a clicker trainer- last time I saw her she was riding nice and round ..you might want to check that out.
BTW thats for getting clicker training out there! Dont think I will be visiting your site again.
interesting that it takes the writer so long to ridicule something that is used in captive-handling and husbandry around the world.
if it really doesn’t work, why do keepers + zoo-vets all over the globe rely on this OC-training to keep them + the animal-patient safe + calm?
having taught parrots, rabbits, dogs, cats, horses, cows, sheep, a donkey, and a couple of crows, i can say it works fine for me. also box-turtles, iguanas + tegus.
and i too have had equines for over 20-yrs – no cute ‘lets teach the pony to pull the hankie from the pocket’ tricks, here!
“A clicker trained horse is not going to excel in any athletic discipline.”
One will have to tell my 100 mile Competitive Trail Stallion this since he is clicker trained and loves it. And, also to his son who also competed long distance and is now my best demo horse for clicker training.
What an interesting way to gather email addresses because so many people are sure to comment. I’ve just returned from a clicker training tour and the more people see the more they love it. To find out who uses it and how go to the articles
section of http://www.zenhorsemanship.com You will be surprised at who you find there.
Clicker training is not about food, it’s about the marker and the conversation with the horse that creates the true unity only spoken about by the old masters.
Dolores
http://www.zenhorsemanship.com
sorry, i missed this statement from KAY -
”These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary.”
BTW, kay, i have been working with aggro-dogs since 1985 – both dog-aggro + human-aggro, with and without bite-histories. i don’t do ‘OBEDIENCE training’ with them -
i do B-Mod.
to date, i have YET to *roll* my first dog – aggressive or any other. dogs =offer= an exposed-belly as a freely presented signal – or for petting (shrug). i have rubbed many a belly – and NEVER rolled a dog to get there!
trust is an essential part of re-training an aggro-dog.
aggression is most-often rooted in fear – or at least uncertainty, anxiety, sumthin.
rolling, shouting, choking, shocking, kicking, helicoptering, body-slamming, prongs, chokes, pinching, ear-sandwiches, toe-nooses, smacks, forced-retrieves and other highly aversive handling (i refuse to dignify those practices as ‘training’, which is teaching) are never used when i train…
ESPECIALLY in the case of aggro-dogs, i want them to relax.
in the case of horses, when i am working with a 1200 to 1400# animal, i don’t want to pi** them off just because my great-grandad did it this way – plenty of other great-grandads used kind + clear methods.
they didn’t use a clicker, but they didn’t (as U suggest) beat their horses, either.
(Quote: ”Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating.”)
best regards,
– terry pride,
apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
‘over 20 years educating people, training pets’
Terry,
That’s great that you are so successful with your clicker training. I’m really successful with the way I train. I still think clicker training is ridiculous and you and all the other clicker training people should get together and live in a world of happiness and sunshine and horse erections. You’re not going to convert me, so quit trying. I will always roll my dogs and spank my horses and I don’t care if it’s unpopular. I don’t train animals for a living, so I don’t really need to justify myself in order to make money. I do what I do because I love doing it and I love my animals.
The writer has overlooked an important part of ‘marker’ aka ‘clicker’ training: *bridging*. In essence, marker training helps horses to understand that the chosen sound (whether it be a clicker or the word ‘good!’) means, “Yes, this is the desired behavior.” So, instead of having to try to guess what the handler wants, or instead of having to endure strictly ‘negative’ reinforcements, the horse is able to understand what is wanted so she may choose to perform the desired behavior when it is asked for. Marker training is a way in which interspecies communication can be enhanced.
I’ve never seen a gelding or a stallion get a chubby from marker training. Just who has the writer seen this with, and WHAT activity were they and the handler engaged in?
There is a big ddifference between a dropped/relaxed gelding and a gelding with an erection. Quote from a “master” clicker trainer:
Yeah, the erections are just a side effect.
after witnessing numerous clicker trained horses bounce a chubby off their belly during training for standing still, backing, chase, riding, “touch”, Spanish walk, head set, bowing, etc.
Are you unaware of these erections because you’re atop the horse? Bring a video camera next time; you all look silly.
terry pride apdt#1827 – obviously you didn’t read the entire article. Scan up to where I specifically write about the origins of clicker training being effectively used for animal husbandry.
And that’s precisely what I mean; horses are not dolphins. Clicker training was not invented to create bonds with animals, and using treats to create bonds is asinine.
Besides the point, are any of you objectively aware of how your horse behaves for other non-clicker trained handlers? Horses are big and dangerous; they should be taught to respect all people, not just people giving treats or playing games.
Zen Horsemanship – If clicker training is not about food, when do the treats as positive reinforcement get removed?
ihavequestions – Balanced training relationship have to use both positive and negative reinforcements. Many people who use clicker training (exclusively) think all other methods of horse training only use negative reinforcements.
Gals, negative reinforcements don’t have to mean beating, and positive reinforcements don’t have to mean treats. Think outside the system. If you “systemitize” your horse, you’re creating a monster for anyone else who doesn’t follow your voodoo.
And despite any one position, we appreciate all the comments. In general, our society could use more inspired crosstalk; it’s healthy we don’t all think alike.
But that said, Clicker Training horses and shouting about the merits of your new horse “bond” is silly. Don’t fool yourself; the horse likes food, not you. The horse may do what you want, but it’s for the reward you give, not because the horse necessarily even likes people.
It’s okay, horses don’t need bribes in order to be nice to you.
Anyone who works around horses and doesn’t know that a male horse “drops” when he is relaxed should probably get the hell out of there before they get killed by their own ignorance some day. Cripes.
Wow, what a sadly uninformed article. I can’t identify a single paragraph that is based on fact.
I don’t even know where to start to counter these unfounded claims. Let me attempt to highlight a few points:
“Natural” horsemanship is actually NOT directly compatible with clicker training. “Natural horsemanship” motivates the horse to act by releasing pressure (-P); clicker training motivates by adding rewarding (+R). Please go watch a Parelli video and compare.
Author claims treats turn any animal into a puppy who follows you around with no understanding of right and wrong. So you believe by whacking your horse, he now has a moral sense or right & wrong? Or perhaps you meant manners/boundries? If so, do you understand the logic that one CANNOT clicker train if the horse doesn’t have the manners not to just snatch the food? How does hitting him with every mistake teach “right”?
Clicker trained horses are proven not to be “following just for food”. Clicker trained dogs do a “hot dog challenge” where they’re so well trained they bring a whole hot dog back to the owner without biting into it — if it was all about food, how is this possible? If you take a moment, watch one of Alexandra Kurland’s vidoes. In a recent one (“Microshaping”) she trains a horse with food all over the ground. The horse is still doing what she asks and eating only the tidbits he earns while clearly ignoring the food all around his feet.
Clicker trained horses do have a bond, as much as any horse can bond to a person. A bond is based on trust. Logic tells us that animals tend to trust kind consistent people and distrust people who cause them pain, overeact, or cause them fear. It makes no sense to think a horse runs up and looks forward to working with someone known to cause lots of pain. The words “ring sour”, “stubborn”, and “nasty” were labels TRADITIONAL trainers invented to describe *their* horses.
Why couldn’t clicker training be used on a competition horse? They used to say barefoot horses couldn’t do competitions, and people laughed at the first few who tried.
Does the author understand what a “trick” is? Is standing at the mounting block a “trick”? How about moving forward with leg pressure? How about a perfect whoa every time?
If these are “tricks”, sign me up for a “trick” horse. LOL
Clicker training was not invented just for husbandry (i.e. care & breeding) purposes. Aquatic mammals in aquariums earn their keep by performing and the whole time not hurting the people around them. The Navy used clicker training to create dolphins that can accomplish military missions such as navigating a minefield or reconnisance. The dolphin, turned free in an ocean full of fish, does his job and comes back to the people. Why would he do that if all the food he wants is around him?
The author doesn’t understand what a “bribe” is or how CT works. A bribe is something you give that you should not. Clickertraining is a REWARD– much like a paycheck you get from work. The horse never should not get the reward if he doesn’t do what is asked. A reward is also not always food (surprise!). It all boils down to saying ‘good job’ when he gets it right, not wait for him to make a mistake so you can give him another ‘coming to Jesus’ moment of fear or pain. I’d rather think of my horse as a primarily good horse, not go to the barn thinking of him as an idiot who needs to be whacked around.
Here is food for thought: some people find it very rewarding to themselves to dole out punishment. It feels good to “prove who’s boss”, to control, to “teach him a lesson”, and to be “alpha”. It’s a fact that when something is rewarding to a person, they tend to do it more often. Some people get so caught up in it, they can’t see any other way. When a trainer’s only tool is their well-used crop, a chain shank, and sharp spurs, that trainer’s got a tiny training toolbox (of methods) and may find themself stuck easily.
While I respect the author’s right to their own opinion, this essay should’ve been clearned marked as “Opinion”. There isn’t a single logical fact in it, no sources cited, no proof, no nothing.
Respectfully Yours,
A Retard
P.S. I’m retraining a dangerous horse that was thrown into a kill pen because the traditional training wasn’t working after he had a traumatic incident. (He kicks at people when scared). The more you correct an animal who is fear-aggressive, the more scared he gets and in turn the more aggression you get. A pro Natural horsemanship guy tried but couldn’t cure him. We’ve gotten more progress with him doing clickertraining than any other method.
>> …where I specifically write about the origins of clicker training being effectively used for animal husbandry. << – ‘K’
well, no, it wasn’t -
the ORIGINS of clicker or any other form of marker-training were the experiments of BF Skinner with the OC-box or Skinner box, when he was on the faculty at Harvard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.F._Skinner
quoting wiki:
‘ ‘Operant conditioning is distinguished from classical conditioning (also called respondent conditioning, or Pavlovian conditioning) in that operant conditioning deals with the modification of ‘voluntary behavior’ or operant behavior.
Operant behavior ‘operates’ on the environment and is maintained by its consequences, while classical conditioning deals with the conditioning of respondent behaviors which are elicited by antecedent conditions.
Behaviors conditioned via a classical conditioning procedure are not maintained by consequences.’ ‘
(End Quote)
it had nothing to do with husbandry whatever -
—————————————————-
it was to begin to understand learning, behavior and cognition in non-humans, a process that continues today, and whose applications have increased enormously.
wasps detecting explosives? pouched-rats finding plastic-coated land-mines? conservation-dogs finding dung from endangered-species? guide-horses leading the blind?
dogs finding mercury in drains, leaks in gas-transport pipelines, picking-out fertile dairy-cows in estrus, finding algae-tainted catfish BEFORE they get packed as fillets?
yup.
all c/t apps in the real-world.
also horses who load without fuss even under stress and turmoil, tolerate and even enjoy noisy-challenges like snapping-tarps in a brisk-wind, and OFFER their hooves for the pick or the farrier… willingly.
what’s not to like?
communication is a highly-valued thing – horses like to know what the H*** we are asking for, and this is an easy way to interpret, biped to quadruped, and back-again.
best,
– TSW-terry
terry pride, apdt#1827, CVA, IPDTA, TDF
proud member of Treat-Slinging Weeniew WorldWide
‘treats slung with abandon…
dogs drunk with joy!’ – tmp, 5/13/2008
Kay – “These are the same people who think obedience training is a valid way to control a dominant-aggressive dog. They don’t understand that just because the dog sits doesn’t mean the dog respects you. As soon as the food is gone, the dog will surely bite someone. They need to be rolled and pinned–which is an uncomfortable experience for all parties involved but definitely necessary. In the same respect, some horses with bad ground manners do it because they are bossing their owners around. Those horses need a nose chain and a firm-but-not-physically-damaging beating”
Not physically, but I guess you are not worried about mentally then?
Then you have no understanding of learning theory, NEVER mind, clicker training. Does punishment work, yes it does or people wouldnt use it, but it doesnt work or long term OR has lasting effects. Its an easy way.
I am an animal behaviorist with a bachlors from an acredited university. While I use TONS of other methods beside clicker, I would never rely on punishment.
Besides clicker training isnt ALL postive reinforcement it is actually a combination of Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punshiment.
My five year old TB stallion NEVER once dropped when doing clicker training. Not once.
As far as using the click for riding, it MARKS where the horse is correct so that you dont have use as much leg/hand/seat next time…teaches the horse to carry themselves.
AT least we arent hitting them in the heads with “carrot” sticks.
Dolores – “Competive Trail Stallion”? Okay, C/T might be great for that, but how about Grand Prix Dressage? How about general Dressage? You can’t stop and give your horse treats in a show ring.
and Terry – Your rats, dogs, wasps C/T examples back up all of citizen.K’s points: CLICKER TRAINING MAY SERVE A PURPOSE, BUT IT DOES NOT PROVIDE YOU WITH A BOND.
C/T can obviously be useful for a variety of reasons. No one is arguing that. Getting your horse to like you shouldn’t be one of them. Did the wasps, dogs, and rats all like their clicker trainers just because of C/T?
The problem with Clicker centric trainers/followers is that they can’t see the forest for the trees. Sure, C/T can allow you to command your horse to do weird, crazy, awesome stuff. Most likely, unless you’re handling the horse, no one else can ask your horse the same things.
Example: Girl at my barn gives out her clicker training business cards to everyone. And yes, I see erections from her horse frequently while they are “working” (and yes, NOT just dropping, fully on belly slappers almost without failure).
Also, the help always complains about her horse. She can’t believe that he’s a pain-in-the-you-know for other people. Does he walk great and speedy in from the pasture when she pulls him out? Absolutely, perfect angel. What about when the barn help, or even one of the little girls taking lessons goes to grab him? Problems:
- won’t come to the fence
- won’t be caught for halter
- won’t allow halter on
In the morning:
- goes to back of stall when halter comes out, backs around like a lunatic
- HAS to be drug out to pasture.
The Hispanic help, the little, girls, even the barn manager have issues handling this horse. Yes, the horses’ owner is very nice, but I’m surprised she hasn’t been kicked out of the barn. She keeps talking about wanting to jump this horse, but after the “natural” trims leave him hoof sore for 6 straight days, I don’t know what she’s thinking.
I guess the whole clicker, iron free, “natural” horsemanship stuff just seems like a crock. Soooo many women who buy into one of these systems take the approach that anyone not buying into their system is totally cruel and loves to beat horses. It’s kind of like a holier than thow thing.
I love my horse. I’ve never beaten a horse. I’m against horse slaughter. My horse sees the best vet and farrier I can afford.
Being anti-cruelty and anti-clicker training is not mutually exclusive.
That’s why this site rocks. I’m so glad someone is finally calling B.S. on those who think they “know the way.”
You guys may have found uses for clicker training your horses, but don’t think for a minute you’ve trumped thousands of years of caring horsemen and horsewomen who don’t have a book or a $150/seminar “sage” to follow.
It seems though that many women in horses need a “name brand” to follow. Name brand tack? Name brand barn? Name brand trainer? Name brand training system?
What happened to just plain ole’ horse love and plain ole’ horse training? Love, respect, bonding.
My horse gets a kick out of me. And you know what, I didn’t bribe him with food, and I use a nose chain frequently.
Too bad I can’t market and sell my “horse bonding system”. It works awesome, and I didn’t have to buy fancy tools.
Megan, it’s not the technique or even the little plastic box that builds the bond with your horse. Its the time spent teaching the horse that builds the bond, especially the time spent telling the horse they are doing well and it becomes a game. A lot of “natural horsemanship” focuses on positive punishment (a lot of leg and strong hands on the bit )to get what you want and then negative reward (relaxing the leg and giving rein) when you finally get the action you want. Personally I’d rather tell an animal (including children and adults) yes when they try new things and get them right than harping on them for getting things wrong. Its stressful to hear no and little feedback when looking for the right answer
I use marker training for both horses, dogs, cats and even fish. I also use it on my daughter. I rarely use food (never for children, they get applause- great for potty training) and I DON’T use a clicker box of any kind. I rarely teach “tricks” though I do reward and encourage offered behaviors that make caring for the animals easier. (picture soaking wet sheepdog shaking out their coat on command or standing still and lifting a muddy paw … a trick for some but a necessity if you have a white carpet) .
lol Clicker training system… too funny. You’d think that it was a John Lyons or Parelli scheme the way you say that.
What a trashy ‘magazine’ you have. You seem to have articles to bad-mouth anything. I prefer to pursue positive results, because what you focus on, expands. Clicker training, for example, focuses on the positive and what works. I think you would be better of with your articles if you cut off a slice of that for yourself(ves).
Ursula
Amateur horse trainer using Natural Horsemanship, Clicker Training, Conventional Conditioning
Megan,
You rock. I think this site is so awesome because it is finally a place for people like us who DON’T have a brand to stand behind and don’t subscribe fully to ONE method. Either people are pro-horse welfare and subscribe to some whacko training methods (clicker training, natural horsemanship, iron-free, orange stick, etc.) or are anti-horse welfare and train horses using the tried-and-true common sense methods. Being in the middle sucks, but it’s nice to at least have a website to come to.
Clicker training can be used only occasionally, and still be very effective without most of the downsides you mention. Once a horse understands what the clicker means, it is just one more tool in the toolbox. I bring out the clicker once or twice a month for a 15-minute session on something we’ve been struggling with, and it can be a miraculous shortcut. But then the clicker is packed away again.
If the clicker is the *only* means of reinforcing a behavior (or absence of a bad behavior), then yes–big problems. But if not used dogmatically and exclusively, clicker training can be an effective and–for the horse–clear communication.
Every few weeks we ride on the beach and it’s a ‘special treat’ for the horses–a day ride that doesn’t happen often, but they love it when it does. We use clicker training the same way — like a ‘fun’ day that happens every so often. But the training ‘sticks’.
I’ve used it for trailer loading problems, not taking a particular lead while longeing, and for one extremely unmotivated low-energy horse when asked to do things in environments he didn’t find stimulating. But I’ve gone as long as 6 months without touching the clicker, and they still remember what it means and I can do a little fun ‘tune-up’ in areas where negative reinforcement isn’t as motivating.
A good trainer/student picks and chooses from a wide range of approaches and techniques. Shutting out one method entirely can sometimes be just as rigid and limiting as choosing a single way and following it religiously to the exclusion of all else.
Clicker training is just good use of operant conditioning. All animals learn using operant and classical conditioning.
Those who train without rewards for the behaviours that are desired are limiting themselves as they are then only using 2 parts of operant conditioning when there are 4 parts to it. So by dissing reward based training, their training effectiveness decreases and the animals are performing behaviours because they don’t want to suffer the consequences of not doing it.
We all train. We train each other in day to day life and the way people respond to us is based on the previous experiences they have had. So why not use that to our advantage. Learn what our actions will cause to happen and not just limit ourselves to the punishing side of things…..what happens when we reward a behaviour ?
The answer to that is that people/animals don’t want to leave us. They want to stay and learn more coz we are fun to be around. We don’t tie them down to stay with us, they stay out out of choice. I don’t want my horses to stay with me because they are afraid of the consequences if they try to leave. I want them to stay because they like me and what I bring to them.
Clicker training is just good and conscious use of the learning theories that were defined (not “invented”) almost 100 years ago. The way we learn has been around since life began, it jsut took a while for someone (BF Skinner) to be interested enough to research it and define the reinforcers and punishers.
Clicker training is just “educated training”. By educated, I mean educatedin the theory of learning as opposed to the behaviours being trained. We can all be educated in the behaviours, but can we all train them ? Not many people woudl know where to start….. teach them the theory behind learning and they can teach anything.
The saying about ‘give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, and teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime’ springs to mind.
Teach someone how to teach one behaviour and they can teach that behaviour, teach them the theory behind how the animal learns all behaviours and they can teach anything.
I just wanted to add my opinion to these statements about Clicker Training.
I have been doing this for over 15 years and has changed my life and made thousands of children and seniors happy.I have a bond with Crackers my horse that is out of this world.I use all of the top natural horsemanship training methods added with the clicker.
Yes I do trick training and your right I was on the Daivid Letterman show,Animal Planet,also in Alexander Kurlands Books and vidios which I owe to my sucess and enjoyment of my horse.This shows people that horses are smart and can be a good conpanion and safe.
Crackers and I go to Double H Hole in the Woods (Paul Newmans place)Handicapped Kids,Autistic Kids,Senior live ins Mirical Leauges etc He performs tricks people can’t imagine a horse can do.
It is good to be an American and have a choice.
PS. Has never dropped once.
One very important thing the writer of this article seems to have misunderstood out is that after you work on a skill with the clicker, you eventually FADE OUT the clicker and the treats. Therefore, you are not clicking for everything the horse does, and the horse should behave the same for other non-clicking people. Furthermore, there’s no reason to be clicking and treating during competition.
In addition, the purpose of clicker training (in my mind, anyway) is NOT to create a bond with my horse. I love my horses, but I know very well that they are just happy to see me because I bring them their meals. I started to use clicker training as a way to solve some very specific and potentially dangerous problems. Sure there are other ways, but this approach has worked well for me.
I have been Clicker Training for over 8 years and have started over 70 colts with it. It I much safer and fair to use than not. I did a full time study for over 4 years of the use of Clicker Training and combining Natural Horsemanship techniques. I have written a book that has a wonderful maintenance program with the use of Clicker Training. My horses ride just like anyone else’s, but I don’t have to use harsh methods to get good results. I sell my horses to people that do not Clicker Train and they have had great success with them. They do notice that the horses are different and more willing. More of a partner.
I have written Clicker Training: Colt Starting the Natural Horse. This is a step by step guide to start a colt or start any horse with Clicker Training. It phases out the click when the horse understands what you want. So you don’t click for every little thing all the time. You do use Negative Reinforcement when the time is right. What this does is allow the horse to recognize the tasks itself and imprint the tasks as something good so the attitude of the horse is much better than without it, and is much faster.
My horses are very respectful and easier to work with. I do not have to click all the time. My horses understand what I want and do what I ask with very light signals, much lighter than if I never used Clicker Training. They become your true partner because it is not about the food or even the click so much it is about explaining yourself in a way that they truly understand. Doing the opposite of what you want is not even in existence. There is only “I want to because I know how.” Horses are misunderstood.
Clicker Training is for all horses not just abused horses or special horses. I feel that all horses have the right to be trained with the best methods possible. Clicker Training is the top of the list because you can actually tell the horse exactly what you want with the click. All a horse really wants or any animal is to know what we want. Clicker Training allows you to do that. But it is our responsibility to understand the horse and have a good maintenance program to maintain what is taught without the click all the time.
It is not fair to try to exclude horses from Clicker Training since there has been success with Clicker Training for over 6000 different animals and over 40 years of study. The problem is it is new to the horse world and is misunderstood.
I have seen Clicker Trained horses that are disrespectful to their owners, and this most likely is why this article was written. I have also seen horses that are disrespectful that don’t use Clicker Training. You cannot stamp Clicker Training as something bad by what you see by some. Think of the big picture.
I give riding lessons on my horses and no one has to use a Clicker or any food. They ride just fine without it.
I also have trained childrens horses with Clicker Training. The children don’t clicker train, but they ride a Clicker Trained Horse.
I cannot believe what I just read. The ignorance of the author on the topic of operant conditioning with regards to equine is totally astonishing. I don’t even know where to begin on debating as the article is so full of untruths and blatant well, ignorance … I would just encourage any reader to do your own research on Clicker Training with regard to TEACHING horses and find out the truth from educated and knowledgeable trainers who utilize this form of teaching in their own SUCESSFUL day-to-day work.
Good Glory! Such rubbish …
Wow, I got a totally different feel from this article than everyone else. I have been riding for over 20 years and most of my riding has been showing hunter jumpers. I have spent time starting young horses and re-training ex-racehorses too. I have dabbled in dressage and about a year ago have had the opportunity to do a little eventing too.
With all the years of riding I have seen all different kinds of training methods. I have gone to clinics, Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, some smaller no name natural horsemanship people, and of course lots of hunter jumper clinics. I took bits and pieces from every clinic I attended and have also taken tips from every trainer I have worked with.
We had a horse at a barn I rode at a few years ago that was a lunatic about gates. This horse would about have a panic attack walking through a gate. It wasn’t just the fear of the gate hitting him, it was a deep fear. Not knowing his history we couldn’t determine what caused this fear for sure. Understand though, he was an absolute angel about everything else. But he was downright dangerous to turn out or bring in. The outdoor arena had a gate and there was no way you could be on his back to get him through the gate and on the ground he would trample you, get loose, or start rearing and striking out. We tried everything from treats, lunging near gates, standing near gates, we even set up a round pen with a gate in the middle so he would have to go in and out of the gate with no people around. We would put his food on one side of the gate and water on the other. He wouldn’t eat, he would rather not go through a gate than eat. So, it wasn’t just the gate with people, gates were scary to this horse in every way. The trainer at the barn was about to give up until she was told about a clicker trainer person who someone had success with working on trailering fears. So this clicker trainer person came out and started working with him (his name was Teddy). After about 2 weeks, he was getting better about the gate. I can say, he had erections a few times, he was not dropped and relaxed – these were full on erections. I remember the trainer even asked the vet, who rolled his eyes and made a comment about the training method. Needless to say, he got better about the gate after about 2 months. I will say that although he was better about the gate, you had to have food. The clicker trainer said that eventually you could wean him off the treats. He was almost normal about the gate when the clicker trainer stopped working with him and soon after that Teddy was sold so I don’t know how he ended up long term. I don’t think it was totally food motivated. It seemed like Teddy gained confidence, the food was a distraction of sorts.
I know that was long, but I wanted to share the positive experience of clicker training that I witnessed before I went any further. Because I was pretty impressed with Teddy’s recovery I decided to go to a few clicker training clinics and audit them. First I will say, there were erections all over the place. When I first read the erections part of this article I was laughing hysterically because I thought that was the weirdest thing I had ever seen. And NO these horses were not just dropped. I’m a grown woman, I know the difference! Second, everyone there was so focused on the “task” at hand that they weren’t accomplishing a very well rounded training program. No one that was at this clinic with their horse were doing any other training besides clicker training. Their horses were all acting like dogs (with erections) and many of the owners shared what their goals were with riding and with their horses, it was clear that these goals weren’t going to be met with clicker training.
I had a friend who was looking for a barn and she ended up at a semi natural horsemanship barn that had a clicker trainer that came twice a week. My friend wasn’t looking for a natural horsemanship barn but it was in the right area and the amenities were great. So, after a month she calls me and tells me the horses are all weird and her horse has become a dud. My friend wasn’t a super experienced horse person so she asked if I would come out and see. She had been taking clicker training lessons twice a week for a month. Her horse, a 5 yr old Hanoverian mare had been under saddle for about 8 months. She was a super quiet mare and my friend wanted to do dressage with her, though not much competing. She is a small mare, 15.3, with a huge stride and very pretty. She was always pretty forward, but quiet. My friend got on her and could barely get her to trot. She said the clicker trainer had mostly been doing ground work, but a few times she was riding during a lesson to teach her to stand at the mounting block for mounting and dismounting. Also, she had been having problems with the mare standing still when she would first get on her. Not wild crazy, just antsy, young horse ADD. So, it appeared the mare was waiting for treats or something. I got on her and it was the same thing. I suggested she stop the clicker training, lunge her and make sure she moves forward (the mare knew voice commands). After a month of no clicker training the mare was back to being herself! My friend moved to a different barn and has had her shown through Prix St George without another clicker training session.
I guess what I got out of this article is the same as my experience with clicker training and really any other training “system”. People seem to overdue things and with clicker training and natural horsemanship it seems like the people who are totally into assume that anyone who isn’t beats their horses. Yet, they read an article that points out the “system” goes too far, they assume beating your horse is the only other option.
I took away training systems are silly. Every trainer and every training system may have something to offer a horse. Exclusively using any training system is not only ridiculous, it isn’t true training. I don’t think clicker training a horse is good. I do think that for major problems, depending on the horse, clicker training can actually help. Systems are a joke, every horse is different, and every situation is different. Relying on one certain training method is too conforming for me and for any horse.
One more thing, having only positive reinforcements is not a great way to communicate effectively with your horse. Horses like clear definitions and they like to know not only what you WANT them to do, but also what you DON’T want them to do. Now, clicker trainer people, that doesn’t mean beating, crops, whips, and spurs. It can simply mean raising your voice, slight pressure, YES sometimes a chain.
The clicker trainer people who have posted don’t seem to see that THEY are the ones who are one extreme. Open your eyes to see that there are many different ways to train a horse and training a horse with one single method is generally not the best.
Tally Ho!
Bonnie
I have two colts: Natural Hormanship & clicker trained. When one of my colts is pulling a steep grade off trail through sage, rocks and manzaneta at 3.0 mph and they are giving me exactly what I want, I click them. Their ears pop without loosing a stide or stopping for food. But they do stop eventually, knowing and trusting that all is well and they seem proud and pleased with themselves. They love knowing what it is I want and they love to know when they have done what I want. [The U.S. Cavalry, a century ago, patted the neck of the horse and the manual states emphatically how important that reinforcement is.]
to me relationship is my movitation for clicker training and performance is second. Being able to tell my colts that what they just did was exactly what I wanted and when I wanted it, is thrilling. Safety at my age of 80 is also a factor.
Wow there is so much incorrect information in this article that I dont even know where to start.
1. It seems a common misconception that if you use clicker training you must not ever use corrections. NOT SO for many of us. There are people who only do clicker training and nothing else BUT there are many people who use clicker training as ONE PART of thier training program, not thier entire training program. This applies to dog training as well as horse training. I do believe that some of what I call “clicker zealots” have given some incorrect sterotypes to those that use clicker training therefore preventing some people from seeing the benefit. Clicker training is just how we initially teach a behavior and put it on cue. Once we have the behavior on cue (rein, foot, verbal, what ever you choose)then you no longer clicker for it. At that point then you can use your normal cues and corrections for lack of compliance. I added clicker to my horses training program in addition to other training methods to achieve a goal. To criticize all clicker training because you are not aware of how it works is like the clicker zealots saying all non clicker trainers beat thier horses into submisssion. Both extreme views are incorrect. I agree that not setting structure and gaining your horses respect is a mistake. I just hate to see people assume that no clicker people do gain respect from thier horses.
2. Ive never had my gelding get an erection when clicker training him. I think if someone is having this issue it isnt related to their clicker training but something else.
3. one person mentioned if a horse is clicker trained no one else can work it. NOT SO. The clicker isnt how you tell them to do something! When initially teaching a behavior yes the clicker says you are doing the right thing. Its a reinforcement, it isnt the cue. You shape a behavior and then put it on cue! Once it is on cue why should you not be able to have other people ask for it??
4. This idea that a clicker horse mugs and bites and is aggressive… When I got my gelding he was a food mugger and he definitly didnt come from a clicker background. I used clicker training, and other methods in combonation, to teach him pushing gets you nothing. I have used clicker training to easily teach him to move laterally, back, disengage his hindquarters, drop his head, etc around food and not crowd or push. Initially when I got him if you pressured him to move away and he didnt know exactly what to do he would become increasingly aggressive and scared a few trainers and tried to stomp them. I had never done any clicker training with him at that point. I then decided to use the clicker training to first show him what I wanted. I clicker trained the response I was looking for and then added the pressure back in when he didnt respond correctly. This worked and got my horse performing. My horse does not have the typical flight response of many horses I see. When pressured and he doesnt know what to do, he fights. Now I can walk into the field with his food bowl and ask him to laterally move or back and wait, set it down and then give him a release and have him approach politely.
5. I started using clicker training with my horse because as I watched almost all trainers were using negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcment is the removing of pressure to encourage a behavior. I wondered why not first teach the horse want to do, put it on cue, then only add the pressure in when he knew what I wanted and didnt respond. Clicker training just makes the initial teaching based on positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement. It doesnt mean that at other times you can not choose things from the other training quadrants. There is
positive reinforcement- adding something to make a behavior happen again
negative reinforcement- removing something to make a behavior happen again
negative punisher- removing something to discourage a behavior from happening again
positive punishment- adding something to discourage a behavior from happening again
Well there you have it. Clicker training doesn’t work with horses. Sure works for my mules and donkeys though. Huh. Maybe that other thing in my barn that used to be a nut case is a short eared mule.
Bonnie commented about the article and stated.
>Exclusively using any training system is not only ridiculous, it isn’t true training.
>Systems are a joke, every horse is different, and every situation is different. Relying on one certain training method >is too conforming for me and for any horse.
>Horses like clear definitions and they like to know not only what you WANT them to do, but also what you >DON’T want them to do
I am not sure how you would give a clear definition to a horse if you don’t have a system. Horses like to know what to expect and do better with consistency. You have to have many different solutions to each problem, but you have to know where you are going. If you have no system it can be the blind leading the blind or it will be this or that. That also can be why success is not in the future. We should have a system of guidelines to go by to know where we are going. Those guidelines can be broken to the individual, but you better know where you are going. Nothing causes more frustration than inconsistency.
I wouldn’t expect someone to know how to start a colt if they never did it before. I would hope they would have a plan.
You can have a set program, but every horse is different the more experience you have the better you will be able to deal with the issue. Everything is not cured by the click it is an assistance for unlearned tasks and gives the horse the idea in a positive way. What you do with it after that is up to the individual.
Training horses is just like Art no one person is going to train the exact way as the other and that is the way it should be, but we have to know how. We also have to know what works and what doesn’t work.
Clicker Training can change how you see the horse and for some that can be difficult. Working with the thinking concentrated horse can be a challenge for some. You will have to keep up with your horse. Horses live by systems everday.
Leslie Pavlich
Just adding to those that have stated this article is so uniformed it almost is laughable if it didn’t discourage people who are afraid of new ideas from trying it. he extra size type on erections was revolting. As someone said, if you don’t know the difference between dropping and and erection boy are you not a horse person.
Clicker training started with dolphins and orcas because you can’t make them do anything or put a noose around their necks so the idea was to help them learn what was expected by a clear signal, a clear yes. That is what the clicker is all about. I’ve been with many of the “famous” traditional trainers that work off of pressure and release or roundpen the horse into submission. If the author thinks that running a horse half to death gains respect, well that’s their choice. I would much rather have a horse that is thinking and trying to figure out what I’m asking. He can walk away at any time. He could attack me if he wanted to but all he wants to do is be with me, often with no treats involved.
I hope the author is not receiving a salary for his job because that is an reward. That’s how he buys his food. What’s the difference.
Leslie-
Thank you for your comment and first I would like to say out of all the clicker training advocates that have commented on this article both you and Suzanne’s comments are the only comments that offer insight and practical experience.
I disagree that you need a training “system” to effectively train a horse. A system doesn’t give you eyes to lead your horse. The system MAY give an inexperienced person confidence for a “do-it-yourself” way of “training”.
The main point of difference is offering clear guidelines of both what you want from your horse and what you don’t want from your horse. With clicker training, from the clinics I audited the horses were getting “conditioned” but when it came down to practical “training” that went further towards performance the horses and owners appeared confused and lost. Plus, the horses that were acting bad were just allowed to. It appeared as though in some cases, depending on the person and horse, they were creating monsters!
I have no doubt and I don’t think this article is saying that clicker training doesn’t work. In my opinion for people that don’t keep there horses at home and are looking to further their “horsemanship” skills and riding, clicker training is a very narrow path to achieving goals with their horse(s).
I guess one of the biggest problems I have with clicker training isn’t so much the training as I said I think it can be a great tool for problems that aren’t getting resolved in any other way (fear, aggression, & anxiety). I wouldn’t say it is the only way, but it is something to fall back on if needed. The proof is in the comments from the other clicker training folks. It’s clicker training or cruelty. That is just absurd!
Yes you need a plan when you are training a horse, but a method or a system? I totally agree that inconsistency is frustrating for anyone learning, whether it be a horse, dog, or a person. But a method or system isn’t necessarily needed to create a consistent training “plan”. Most horses can easily read body language and understand the tone of a persons voice WITHOUT being conditioned. Most horses know what is respectful and disrespectful just from having been with other horses. Boundaries are a fact of every animals instinctual life and it’s easy to “train” off of those instincts without using a system and it doesn’t mean BEATING them!!!
I guess it all depends what you are training. Sure, if you are training “tricks” I would say clicker training is on the top of the list. But, practically most horses aren’t trick horses and most owners, even if they DO want their horse to do tricks, they want more than that.
I understand that you have clicker trained children’s horses and give lessons on clicker trained horses and the riders don’t use the clicker.
I’m wondering, though, on average, do most people that do clicker training have their horses at a clicker trained exclusive barn? Because I imagine the inconsistency of handling would be confusing in the everyday handling. I have no doubt that clicker training CAN be beneficial for problems. I just don’t see the benefit of it as a foundation to a horses training.
I will say the last comment from Charlotte Araki is what gives clicker training and the people involved a bad name, she isn’t the only one. All the others besides Leslie and Suzanne almost clearly define WHY clicker training doesn’t make sense.
“If you don’t know the difference between dropping and an erection boy are you not a horse person”
Clearly Charlotte, you have not read many of the other comments with a clear explanation that dropping and an erection are two separate actions and all knew the difference quite well!
“If the author thinks that running a horse half to death gains respect, well that’s their choice.”
Again, the extreme. Of course if someone doesn’t like clicker training they must be abusing their horses. That’s the only other option. Clicker training or abuse. No where in this article does it talk about round pens or running a horse to death. You discredit yourselves by not reading the entire article AND by making extreme assumptions.
“I hope the author is not receiving a salary for his job because that is a reward. That’s how he buys his food. What’s the difference.”
So, you are comparing a paying job to clicker training. I don’t know who you work for, but every job I have had has clear definitions of good and bad behavior and expectations. If you do your job you get paid, if you go above and beyond you get a bonus, promotion, or some other positive reinforcement, if you fail at something you could get fired, you could get a dock in pay, you could get demoted, you could get “written up”. It’s not all rewards in the world. There is clear positive and negative reinforcements, usually outlined in a employee handbook.
This is a great discussion and find the comments equally as interesting and entertaining as the article itself!
Hi,
I am actually a “lurker” on a different forum that talks about clicker training. There was a link to this article on that site so I came to see what this was all about.
I rode horses when I was a kid. I rode english and did some jumping, but nothing really fancy. I wasn’t able to stay in horses during high school or college so when I was financially stable I started riding again. It was always my dream to have my own horse and now I do.
I used to be very confident around horses and while riding. Now, maybe because of my age, I find myself pretty timid around them. I’m a chicken in the saddle, but thought I was pretty good handling them on the ground. Then I got my horse, Benny, a TB off the track. Well, he had been off the track for a few years by the time I got him. He probably wasn’t the right horse for me, but my trainer at the time thought he was perfect.
Needless to say, I’m at a barn that doesn’t have a full time trainer. The trainer that comes once a week for lessons is great, but between lessons I needed to get more confidence. I have been embarrassed to admit that I’m not totally comfortable with doing a lot with Benny so I just haven’t done that much outside of grooming and riding in the ring.
There are a few woman at my barn that do parelli natural horsemanship stuff. But, since I’m in marketing as a profession I saw through Parelli and told myself I would not succum to the target audience of 30-40 woman lacking confidence. I didn’t see the “mainstream” training systems or methods as good for me or my horse, I rather just use common sense and get to know horses and their behavior better. I saw these systems for what they are and what the natural horsemanship article on this website says “genius marketing”.
I have been doing some research and have been considering clicker training. One of the girls at my barn swears by it and there are a few people that are getting into it. I have watched, on the sidelines and have not seen anything impressive or groundbreaking (AND I HAVE SEEN ERECTIONS). But, I have been wanting to gain confidence and also have Benny learn that when I ask something of him, I would really appreciate it if he did it.
What I did like about the clicker training is that it isn’t “mainstream” so I thought without the strong following, there might be something in it for me. Again, I’ve been a “lurker” and had not made up my mind.
Seeing the reactions to this article have shed some light on the subject. The article itself didn’t persuade me, but the clicker training people did. My biggest problem with my “fear” with Benny is that I am not firm in what I am asking him to do. I ask, I ask politely, and when he blatantly gives me the finger, I decide not to push the subject. He’s got my card!
The way this article and this magazine is portrayed on a clicker training forum is completely different than it actually is. Which makes me question clicker training. There was one post that said – “Say No To Your Horse Trainer” (summary: who needs a trainer if you
have a sharp whip & enjoy hitting things?) Did you even read the article? It has nothing to do with that. You scorn this article, but you have completely as Bonnie said “discredited” yourselves with your inability to read.
No where on this magazine website I have read any advocacy to beating a horse, using a sharp whip or enjoying hitting things. I read almost every article on this website and found many of the articles interesting with a different viewpoint of the horse society. But, most importantly using common sense and learning about horse behavior to strengthen the relationship with your horse.
I am someone who is looking for information on gaining confidence with my horse, hopefully getting a better seat, and hopefully being able to ride around a course of jumps, is not being uninformed by reading this article. In fact it is very eye opening to what I THINK the author was trying to say. Clicker trainer people are extreme, they can’t see outside of their clicker ways. The horses are conditioned and more importantly the clicker people are conditioned. I for one want a relationship with my horse, I want my horse to like me, but as said on one of the articles in this website, my horse NEEDS to respect me. Nowhere does it say that respect comes from beating, whips, or running to death.
I have 3 kids, all boys. I don’t beat them, but I need to be firm with them. I guess I see that my horse needs the same firm, but gentle and understanding hand. I want Benny to be happy, to love me, but most importantly Benny needs to know that I am the boss mare LOL!!
Thanks for shedding some light on the subject clicker training people. I choose sound minds who ARE open to hearing other viewpoints. The article was entertaining, but the clicker training peoples comments were enlightening.
Bonnie was right though, Suzanne and Leslie did provide the only articulate response to this article and I do appreciate that. However, clicker training is not a path I will choose unless it is deemed necessary!
I laughed my whole way through this, why, well because when a friend bought me the “clicker training” book because she thought it was neat, i promptly handed it back to her and said sorry but i dont train my horse to do tricks. Horse’s are 1,000 animals and i do not reward my horse for being good with food every time. He gets hugs and kisses and lovey talk to him, my horse respects me listens off the barn property, he stands walks next to me, and is just a good boy. All without clickers or a stash of cookies in my pockets for a reward everytime he doesnt bite my face or run me over. my horse tries to run me over i will shank him and repremand him, when good i will love on him. I dont care what you clicker training weirdos think, i think you all need to find a small island where you can sing along to the radio with your clickers in you hands and talk about how fun it is to make your horse listen with food and freaking clickers, i think your all insane
Cara,
My sentiments exactly. Here’s to common sense! I love on my horse all the time too–I use a baby voice when I talk to him because he spent 3 years on the track living in a dark stall so he’s physically 4 and mentally about 2. But if he gets out of line, I use my angry voice and get after him. As soon as he’s good, it’s back to the baby voice. He’s even learned to relax his head down when I say “good boy” because I only say it when he’s relaxed. This is a purely incidental voice command that didn’t require any clicks or specific rewards. Horses are smart animals and if you pair a word with an action enough times, they catch on without the use of a “marker”. Unpleasant behavior = unpleasant action from owner; Pleasant behavior = pleasant action from owner. Simple. I studied Psychology for 5 years and I know ALL ABOUT conditioning. However, I think conditioning sometimes assumes that everybody is a lot less intelligent than they really are. All animals follow a strong leader. If you are a strong enough person, you don’t need to clickety clack all the time.
Ahem… I would swear that this was my last post on this subject, but I’ll probably get pissed off enough to post again, so I won’t say I’m gone just yet.
If every clicker basher will please READ my posts, what I said was that I tried clicker training with my young, mischievous gelding, and it worked. It allowed me to channel his ever active mind without forcing him to shut it down. I was able to teach him respect without losing his trust. Does that mean I’ve never punished him or called him down? Of course not! GEEZ! I do believe in operant conditioning, but still, with a 1300 lb. critter one does need a “stop that NOW” signal.
That having been said, in my humble experience, I’ve found that I can teach him much more quickly with reward than with punishment. I’m not an extremest, and I doubt many others who utilize clicker training in their training program are either. I don’t say it’s the only way. Heck, it’s not all I use either, but I do use it a lot now because IT WORKS, at least for me and my horse.
All I’ve asked is not to be considered an idiot and an object of ridicule. I SAID everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s expressed respectfully. Okay?
“If you are a strong enough person, you don’t need to clickety clack all the time.” Kay, that was beneath you, and just the kind of sarcasm I’m referring to. Unnecessary.
You really don’t have all the facts. Even before clicker training (I was a Parelli student for 3 years), my gelding always had an erection when I would stroke him. Maybe he just loves having gentle hands instead of being slapped.
I have two geldings and every morning I give them their grain, at liberty, in a field and not once have they attacked me. They do respect me and they know I will give them their treat (of course they’re not starving either).
I use clicker training mostly to teach my horse something new. Once he knows, I just pet him. But, I do give him a treat when I approach him (a small carrot or sunflower seeds). Again, they don’t attack me for more. It’s a sign that I know what treat he likes. It’s like going to a friend’s house and they offer you something to drink. It’s being social. And my horses aren’t fat. I don’t feed them every second.
And let me tell you. I do have such a wonderful relationship with my horses. I hardly have to halter them to ask them. when I want to clean their shelter, I just say go and point to the direction I want them to go and off they go. Now, is that polite or what!!
Maybe, you should try it. Leslie Pavlich gives wonderful courses for beginners and she has a book out.
Get your facts straight, please!!
Don’t the clicker training people already have hundreds of other websites to go to to advocate their “training” methods? Why do they think posting here is a good idea? People who are really against clickers will not use it no matter what anybody says. People who are clicker zealots are the way they are because it obviously works for whatever they are trying to teach their horses to do. I’m yet to see an Olympic (not para-olympics, which is NOT the same thing) rider advocate for it. Since that’s where I’m headed, I see no use for it. I know lots of recreational and trail riders at my barn who use it all the time, but they are on an entirely different plane than me. They want to develop this deep, intense bond with their horses and own their horses for their horses’ entire lives.
every horse I buy is eventually going to be sold. I would never sell a horse at an auction or for meat and they always go to homes where, at the least, they are properly and adequately cared for (even if their new owners don’t use the horse to it’s full potential–at least they feed them and make sure their healthy). It’s just easier to train them to be ridden and handled the way most people in my discipline train and handle horses–and that doesn’t include clicker training. I know trainers in other disciplines–western pleasure, reining, cutting, trail, english pleasure, hunters, dressage, and eventing–who do the same thing that I do and are quite successful.
If it’s your opinion, then that’s fine. But the way you expressed yourself on the subject, is completely wrong. Ok, so now we know you don’t want a horse for life, you want the easiest way to train a horse, not thinking about the horse but rather thinking about the trainer, ok, you would rather continue slapping your horse (if he doesn’t understand you) rather than being patient (even though you said you love horses). I hope you don’t slap your kids (if you have any). As you know, in the olden days, parents used to slap kids and tell them to shut up. Today, we have a little more respect (in general) for life, whether it be human or animal or even plant life.
You can have an opinion on a subject like this but for those who are seeking advice, it’s not fair to put down a method when you haven’t even tried it yourself.
You are seriously mistaken on a lot of points in your post. Clicker training absolutely can be used successfully with horses and other equids. (And chickens, and marine mammals, and just about anything else.)
I’ve had excellent results with clicker training, including training horses to load in trailers, stand for mounting, and training a nervous, pushy donkey to walk alongside me politely, and take treats without biting (which he did, hard, when he came to me).
Clicker training (operant conditioning) is not the same as coaxing or bribery. If you’re not getting good results with it, you aren’t doing it correctly. Since you apparently haven’t done it at all, maybe you shouldn’t be giving advice on it.
I think that this article led to an interesting discussion.
Unfortunately I have had an experience that caused me to have a negative impression of the horse clicker training community. I once owned a horse that had a high energy level and severe behaviorial issues including biting, bolting, and bucking. I recognized that he was a horse that needed a professional rider and regular exercise for a lifetime. I made the difficult decision to sell the horse so that he could have a better life. I told the trainer who bought the horse about all of the issues.
Unfortunately the trainer sold the horse to the parents of a new rider. The horse was manageable as long as he remained in a training program. After he was moved to a boarding stable, the new rider had several riding accidents. Professional horse trainers advised the young rider to sell the horse. Instead, this individual began attributing the horse’s behaviorial problems to abuse. She decided to “save” the horse with clicker training. I was petrified when I found out that this individual was going to attempt riding the horse after he had sat for half a year after bucking her off.
But I was even more repulsed by the actions of those who claimed to be professional clicker horse trainers. These people gave the rider advice without ever working with the horse. These “supportive” people gave this young rider a false sense of confidence. This individual attempted very risky things such as riding the horse alone on a trail.
The internet makes it too easy for people to find information. And with horses, the wrong decision can have very dangerous consequences. I am very uncomfortable with any “quick fix” training method. There is no replacement for patience, repetition, and YEARS of training. Only professional horse trainers have the knowledge and riding skills to correct severe behaviorial issues.
This young person eventually decided to sell the horse. When no one showed an interest, the horse was donated to a horse rescue. This is a horse that had excellent bloodlines and conformation. He could have accomplished many things if he had remained in the hands of a professional horse trainer.
That’s a great comment, Honesty. Thanks for sharing.
clicker training is stupid way to train dogs, people are actually using it for horses????
Yes Chol992000, a few people are using clickers on horses. If you would like to see some videos, go to Youtube and search for “positive horse training” or “clicker training horse.” Some of these people are setting themselves up for accidents because they are not taking the proper precautions when working with horses. For example, I have seen several videos of people wearing flip flops instead of boots. Others even use clickers while trail riding. If something spooks a horse, a little plastic box will not help, instead the rider will need the use of all limbs to balance and regain control of the horse. And perhaps the most disturbing thing, these people are doling out training advice without the benefit of working with horses in person.
You’re so uneducated it’s not even funny. So many animals can be clicker trained. But the clicking is just the beginning – it’s the human’s job to make it a well-rounded training method. Horses, dogs, cats, tigers, lions, whales, dolphins, giraffes, elephants, rhinos, zebras, pigs, goats, sheep, wolves, bears – they can all be clicker trained. Make sure you know what you’re talking about before you go spouting misinformation.
I bet the tiger that mauled Roy of the famous duo was also trained impeccably. In fact, they actually did not euthanise that animal and are still performing with it. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/03/siegfried-roy.html
The point is not that you can or cannot teach a horse “tricks” with a clicker. The point is that, at the end of the day, is the clicker a useful problem-solver? In an ideal setting, sure, lots of animals can learn lots of silly, arbitrary things. But the point is that 1,000-lb-plus animals need training beyond just tricks and rewards for good behavior. When things go wrong, you need to have the wherewithal and reflexes to convince the horse not to trample you, not to buck and run, not to charge into traffic, etc. All a horse can do is react to things and when you forgo predicting that reaction for reliance on a tool, you are putting yourself and your horse in danger.
She said, “the clicker trained horse is conditioned to do tricks for treats.” But come on, humans do that too, we exhibit behaviors that we know will get reinforced. For example, we put coins into a slot machine and hope to get a drink. Aren’t we also doing “tricks” for the machine?
This is quite an attack on what is already known to be a way of training that produces results. There is so much more to this method of training than she perports there to be. Thus would be much more valid if this person would take the time to do her research into this method of training in a balanced and rational manner. Not just taking what she perceives it to be, but report on what the actual findings of her reserach is. Thus her opinion would have much more validity. I would not hesitate to say that she herself possibly uses positive operant training with her own animals / horses even – what after is a pat or strock on the side when they have done something right?? Does this not also add to relationshop with horse / animal.
You describe clicker training as useful method of getting animals – bigger than ourselves, used to have vet visits etc, should or could this not include a horse, even a small one who is considerably bigger and stronger than alot of humans even!!!
So please before you have tried the method in a balanced view and trialed it again in a balanced researched methodology ensure that you inform the reader that you have not done this and that your opinions are possibly biased in some way shape or form – or even perhaps a degree of jealousy towards those who do clicker train and have that relationship with their horse – this one may wish to have!!!
I’m training my own horse, a high-strung QH without clicker training. I’ve been training since the 1960s. I researched clicker training and decided not for me or my horses. Think: evacuating/loading horses in an emergency and can’t find the the clicker? Won’t teach to load using food either. I learned from old cowboys who were never brutal or mean or beat their horses. Ever. So to each her/his own, but not for me. And I do understand the conditioning, etc. I have a degree in Psychology.
Heh.. Yeah, I only skimmed through the comments since there’s so many, but agree with the person who said you obviously know nearly nothing about clicker training, and have likely never actually met a clicker trained horse.
And all that about circus tricks? Really? All I can do is laugh at that. Clicker trained horses will never excel in an athletic discipline? Are you unaware just how many top competitors in the show circut clicker train?
Seriously?
Off the top of my head, STEFFEN PETERS comes to mind. Olympic rider? Yeah. You’re right. His Olympic dressage horses aren’t excelling in an athletic discipline at ALL.
That was sarcasm, if you can’t tell.
And on the contrary, if you actually have any idea what you’re doing, clicker training will teach a horse to be LESS mouthy. I personally have a case of just that. My nippy, pushy, mouthy, will-bite-a-chunk-out-of-your-skin Thoroughbred, excelled at clicker and target training. He no longer bites or pushes or mugs me for food. He’s become much more respectful. I think you need to do a bit more research and get your facts straight before you go writing stuff like this.
Also
“Anyone who works around horses and doesn’t know that a male horse “drops” when he is relaxed should probably get the hell out of there before they get killed by their own ignorance some day. Cripes.”
Hahah, Exactly.
Sorry if some people think it’s so “silly” to have an actually relaxed horse.
Oh and at Zana Levy:
“Think: evacuating/loading horses in an emergency and can’t find the the clicker? Won’t teach to load using food either.”
If you understand the conditioning so clearly, you would understand that the “system” teaches the horse to enter the trailer in a relaxed, comfortable way. Once trained, the horse will load onto the trailer whether you have the clicker in your hand or not. It’s not like they’re going to notice, “O SHES NOT HOLDING THE CLICKER SO I’M NOT GOING IN!”
Another thing that successfully worked with a horse of mine. The Thoroughbred who was previously terrified of trailers, regularly took over an hour to load, and often had to be tranquilized for trips. Food itself did not entice him into the trailer a bit.
Yet, after I’d been working with him for a while, he followed his target right into the trailer at liberty without pause, first time we tried. Because of clicker training, because he’d been worked with and was relaxed and calm when he was focused on what he should be doing.
Before long, he didn’t need it. It’s phased out. He’s learned to be calm and relaxed in the trailer, and now loads perfectly without target, clicker or treats.
It’s fine if you don’t like or choose this training method, but if you even had to ask that it makes me think you completely missed the actual point of training this way and really DON’T understand how it can work.
Seems to me your biggest problem is not with clicker training but with penis and erection and sex.
Why do you find so disturbing that an animal drops his penis while you are around?
Maybe you should work on it with someone (do some quality sex).
Dear you have a serious problem,
I believe someone who cannot tell the difference between a flaccid penis and an erection may in fact be the one with a sex problem.
Good luck.
Citizen K
Just wanted to say that I love this website…..
I think I’ve spent a few hours on it at work this week and it makes me laugh out loud at my desk.
I just sold my 15 year old jumper mare to a little girl who will be able to show her in 3′ hunters and jumper and have fun with her until she retires. Unfortunately, as soon as I sold her to this girl, her trainer started using clicker training on all the horses at the barn. I was put in a crappy position because now that I’ve sold my horse, I have no say on how she’s trained ect. I’ve had her since she was 4 and trained her with the help of trainers in Vancouver.
She’s done the A shows and has always been a bit ‘mare-ish’ but is a real sweet heart.
She followed me everywhere and knew when my truck was coming down the road, as soon as it was in sight she would gallop from the far end of the field right up to the gate by the parking lot. I never came with treats in hand, and always waited till after our ride to give her a special treat.
If she was good, warm bran-mash with carrots. If she was a pain in the butt, no treats. I would give the the odd smack with my hand (I rarely carry a crop) behind my leg if she was being a pain in the butt but only if she was being silly and not genuinely scared of something.
I could walk her around our property with no lead rope and she would follow me, at my side. I read all of these posts about people having their horses as baby’s or young horses….Chloe was 4 when I bought her and 15 when I sold her…hardest thing I have ever had to do. It just kill me that someone has taken that bond I had with her and is now using a device to try and obtain the same bond.
It’s just hard to watch…..So I feel for anyone who has had to go through the same thing. I’m sure Clicker training is great for some horses and some people if they was to obtain that kind of ‘bond’ but I feel that there should be no need for a “device” to obtain respect from a horse.
There are good sides to all these posts and it’s funny how worked up people feel about something they really believe in when its criticized.
C-horse, I love you’re website and Blogs and Videos.
Thanks!
I think this clicker critic is at #4 on the steps written by Karen Pryor:
1. Ignore you
2. Pretend to agree, but actually do nothing
3. Resist, delay, obstruct
4. Openly attack you (the dangerous phase, but also a sign that change is starting)
5. Absorb
6. Utilize
7. Take credit
8. Proselytize
I have read all of the post and I think that the clicker trainers must in all fairness understand that this method may not be for everyone or every horse. We had a clicker trainer in our barn and she worked with a few horses with some results, however she attributed every thing that the horse did to her training. All the progress on the horse was attributed to clicker training. I felt like sometimes that the horses had her trained to give them treats. We brought in off the track thoroughbreds that had been ear twitched and did not like their ears touched. She worked with them and she could touch their ears, but when you approached them with a bridle, they reacted the same as they did before the training. I guess it is not the method but the dogmatic attitude of the clicker trainers that this method is perfect for every horse and every person. I do feel that there is a respect that is not there at times, she worked with a mare for a long time and the mare continued to throw her off at every opportunity, showing me that the mare had no respect for the rider at all regardless of the clicker. She had the fix for every problem and approached everybody with the solution for their horses problem to the point of exhaustion at times. I, being among the crazy people, known as horse people, keep my training methods to myself, unless approached ,asked or hired to train an animal. I do own the barn and stay out of the boarders and my trainers way.
It’s not the method. We all want to use less gagets and have our horses respond to us willingly. If the horse isnt doing something we ask out of motivation for a treat, they are doing it out of motivation for a release of pressure. If you use pressure/release, then you simply use a different motivator than a clicker and treats. If you’ve ever used a halter, lead, birdle, saddle, whip, stick, etc., then you too use an “un-natural” aid. Horses learn to cope with all of our gagets and whatever enviornment we keep them in.
The clicker and treats are always phased out, and from there we use pressure release. We move on. The clicker is simply a great tool for communication between us. It is more precise than pressure/release, and of course we still use pressure release for another level of communication. I trail ride and have never taught my horse a “trick”, unless you consider trailer loading a “trick”. We know others who compete in reining, dressage, driving, western pleasure and jumping that have very succesfull clicker trained show horses. Clicking and treating is not allowed in the show ring, so this should prove the point that once the behavior is learned, the click is no longer needed.
Point is, you may not have that special bond you think you do just because you don’t use clicker training. Clicker trainers and others alike have to work for that bond. It takes time, time and more time.
It is just as easy to reward a horse for charging, biting, kicking, etc, without treats as it is with treats. If someone who clicker trains doesn’t know what they are rewarding, sure, they can creat a monster, but so can anyone who uses pressure release. A bad trainer is simply a bad trainer whichever method they choose.
I’ve been clicker training for years, I’ve made mistakes like everyone else, but I’ve seen incredible results with my horse. He was a bucker, charger, biter before I got him and I used clicker training to teach him manners, imagine that.
I am always opened to learn from other non-clicker trainers, and most people I talk to are opened to learning from me. We are all trying to do what is best for our horses.
My advice to anyone who read this article is to read up some more on clicker training. Some great resources are Sharon Foley, Leslie Pavlick, Alexandra Kurland, and Karen Pryor. Get out, spend time, and have fun with your horses!
–Grace
Clicker training has nothing necessarily to do with bonding, just increasing or decreasing behaviours and putting them on cue. You can clicker train human athletes (just google TAG Teach) and you can clicker train crabs, fish, birds or rabbits. Anything with a brain in fact. And you can do it totally without ever touching the animal. Zoo handlers do this all the time, especially with dangerous animals such as elephants and big cats, although they often use whistles or other sounds.
What it does do is not INTERFERE with the bond as some punishment based methods do. It reduces stress (IF the communication is clear) and expedites learning. But the bond comes from other aspects of the relationship.
I don’t believe the videos of horses following/chasing (whatever) a person through the surf have anything to do with marker-based training so I don’t even get the reference to these scenes.
Wow… don’t know where to start with your ignorance about clicker training with horses. I’m no expert, but I am using positive reinforcement with food reward with my horses. Some do indeed use only 100% positive reinforcement with free shaping and get good results. Personally I combine clicker methods with other methods, so I do not only train a horse as one would train a dolphin. Not every person using clicker methods is a complete purist, but there is a lot to be gained by using as much positive reinforcement as possible in your communication with your horse. I also do not use a clicker, but instead use “good boy” for my sound so far.
Using clicker methods has helped build a bond and trust particularly with a horse who had sore ears that needed treating. There is no need for a twitch or even a halter. I have trained him to tip his head when I say “ear” through clicker training. It has done wonders with de-spooking. They lead politely and respect my space. They are not rewarded for grabbing or pushing for treats, which is called “mugging”. There is no need for the behaviors you describe. It is not bribing nor just about doling out treats.
Clicker, IMO, is a method of communicating with your horse. With clicker they get a positive reinforcement for getting a right answer. They think and begin to look for the answers. They know when they get the right answer by the sound, then they get a positive reward as motivator. They are not afraid or pressured, but willingly work to find the answer to questions (training). Sure, you can use it for tricks. Why not? The horse has fun, as does the human. Personally I do not plan to teach anything like rearing. Same principle is used for teaching them to come on command or backup or be ground tied or side pass to a mounting block. Those are also “tricks”. They know getting the answer has a reward and there is nothing wrong with that motivation. Why use avoiding punishment or negative pressure as the primary or only motivator, as so many do with horse training? One actually can phase out treats or transition to a rub and also extend time period between rewards.
I’ve mainly used clicker methods for ground work, but have used under saddle a little. It works for under saddle also, so hope to utilize the method as we get back into riding after a hiatus. With horses there is going to be pressure of a leg or a rein, but these become cues whose meaning comes through positive reinforcement methods. Why only use negative methods? The escalation of aids with a crop or stick or waggling a rope in a horse’s face? Various methods do work, but I choose to work with my horses in as positive a manner as possible. I work them at liberty mostly.
Yes, I believe those videos where horses dance with their owners. Some get there by non-clicker methods, but positive reinforcement works too.
I can just testify that when I switched to this method that it made a big positive (pun intended) difference with the relationship with my horses. I’m not going back. I’m not using the hit them in the face with a stick or whack their butt or jerk their rope halter with escalation of pain to get so called “respect”. My horses respect me just fine and move out of my space and don’t walk over me and lead politely and load great and work with hoof trimmer and stand for clipping etc. etc.
Best wishes!
Meg with 2 happy horses!
Oh… and my horses are both geldings and they do not get “erections” as you describe.
Meg
woah, I never knew there was this much hype about clicker training…
I guess if it works for some horses it just works, and if it doesn’t work for others, well then it just doesn’t work… no single “method” can be 100% effective for every horse, in fact some methods are 100% ineffective and do more harm than good with certain horses….
I would never try clicker training with my horse because he would go ape-shit and start biting everyone and everything that moved; he never gets treats as a reward except at the end of the day and out of a bucket. And also I don’t want to spend money on truck loads of carrots.
…carrots are cheap and only the horse that is not properly clicker trained is mouthy. My 2 year old gelding, who by the way does not get an erection but as mentioned above drops due to being relaxed, never mugs me for treats because he has been taught not to. He turns his head and allows me to bring the treat to him. I am now shaping his behavior that he must now turn his head and perk his ears. I love clicker training! My horse and I move at lighting speed through the “Natural Horsemanship” training because he knows exactly when he does it right and he is always thinking…no dull horse here.
that’s great that your colt goes so well with clicker training Marilyn! But as far as I know you’ve never tried to train my horse with treats.
I tried it once, rewarding him with a cookie or something when he would do something I wanted, and he started biting for treats constantly and paid attention only to my hand and pocket rather than what I was asking him. He didn’t look at me as a leader, he looked at me as food bucket.
When I didn’t allow the biting and assertively asked him to mind his manners and do as I asked, that only made him pissed off (probably because he thought he was just being offered treats and being reprimanded for accepting them like I was teasing. Horses can’t “reason” as well as humans) and when horses get angry they either get flighty or mean.
When he would bite or nip I’d put my elbow up and his head would ram into it (I never HIT him unless the bite was sudden and I had to react quickly, my horse cannot be made head shy. I’ve slapped his nose for biting many times in 2 years and he is far from headshy) and he would proceed to throw a big horsey-temper-tantrum. Not fun when you’re 5′ and a bit high and he’s almost 16hands and powerful…
so I took the treats out of the picture and replaced them with pressure-release training and giving him scritches on his neck and withers and verbal-praise when he did things really well, and he’s been 1000000% better. ^_^ He concentrates on what I’m doing, not what’s coming out of my pocket or what’s in my hand, and now to get him to do something I don’t have to be loaded with treats all the time.
He only gets treats at the end of our day, usually with his grain, out of a bucket and when I allow him to have them. I don’t just let him dive into the bucket, I make him wait for a bit before eating. He’s still nippy if I’m not right on the ball, but that’s just the way he is and has always been and he’ll work out of it as long as I remain consistent, and using treat training would only encourage his nipping.
And didn’t a clicker fanatic say you can do clicker training without treats? If I wanted to I could snap my fingers everytime he’s good and give him a scritch on his withers and get the same result as a less nippy horse trained with treats would, but I don’t feel like it because he’s happy so why change?
Unfortunately carrots are not cheap when you can’t find a full time job in a stuck-up-rich-town where everything costs a fortune and you can’t sell your horse either because no one is buying. And also I’d rather not sell my horse because I get to keep him for free with a friend so other than regular care he’s not that expensive at the moment.
“Traditional” horse training is from a scientific point of view a form of “Negative reinforcement” ie you apply pressure of some kind and when the horse does what you were looking for, you release the pressure. This obviously works, people have been doing it for centuries. However due to the research of BF Skinner we now know more, this is progress! We now know that if you associate a click (or other noise or signal) with a reward of some kind that is inherantly good from the animals point of view, then you can use the click to say “YES that’s what I’m looking for” It is precise, clear and easily understood by the horse. It is just as useful for competition and performance as groundwork. Involves no bullying so the horse has no reason to resent work or people. But just as when you are teaching a child to tie their shoelaces, you make a big fuss the first few times, but it would be insulting to your teenager to continue rewarding them for tying their shoelaces. The same with horses, once a behaviour is put on cue you no longer need to click and reward for that behaviour.
Clicker training is much the fastest and gentlest way to teach the aids to a horse, after all they are by instinct “Move into pressure” animals and need to be taught to move away from pressure.
Funnily enough when I first got my young gelding, he used to regularly display himself when working, one can only imagine it’s not all that comfortable in trot! But when I started clicker training I rewarded him for putting it away, and then put dropping himself on cue for sheath cleaning!
I quickly went from having an uneducated idiot on a rope who twirled and pulled to having a horse that led quietly and calmly and would never pull even when startled. Also form having a nervous and spooky horse to having a brave think-before-you-react-to-something-spooky horse who would willingly stand untied in a howling gale while I held a strip of light plastic bale wrapping fluttering around his side and legs.
It took me two sessions of 10 minutes for me to get him to stand completely unbothered while I opened a large umbrella right next to him and allowed it to touch him and be passed over his back.
In riding, he would welcome a treat after the click when he was learning something new, but after he was certain what was wanted he no longer looked for a treat after being clicked.
It is a very simple matter, when you can say “Yes, that’s it!” to teach aiming for the centre of a jump, or to teach extension and collection and self carriage.
You can try it on a human volunteer and see how much of a difference it makes. Take one human and place them in a room with a chair, obviously you cannot tell them what it is you want them to do, first get them to turn the light switch on/off, but only use the word “No!” when they are doing the wrong thing and keep quiet and still when they are going in the right direction and doing the right thing. After that add “Yes” to your repertoir and get them to kneel sideways on the chair. say “Yes for moving towards the chair, then for touching the chair, your volunteer will then probably think you want them to sit on the chair but for that they get a “No”. Note the times taken.
Horses are intelligent social creatures and deserve to be treated with their welfare as the highest priority, in my book this does not include punishing a horse for not doing something it doesn’t know I want it to do.
In my experience of training people to train horses, some humans are not suitable clicker trainers, you need a clear idea of what is safe, desirable behaviour and you need absolutely precise timing with your click, otherwise you may easily end up teaching the wrong thing, timing is absolutely vital.
Wow, I hope “Kay” up there marries a man who beats and rolls her around when he’s not pleased with her. Sounds like she could use a little training and an attitude adjustment, no?
Someone asked when the food stops. Like the dogs, it stops as soon as they “get it”. I’ve never had a horse go after my food, bite me, follow me around only because I have treats (I rarely carry treats), or get an “erection” (erections are strictly hormonal; if you don’t know the difference between a horse erection and a horse dropping, you need to stick with mares). Geldings drop for any reason or no reason at all, when they’re relaxed. Clicker training is for teaching new things, and it stops as soon as they understand. Now under saddle, no clicker training goes on here; just on the ground. Some may clicker train under saddle; I don’t know.
Kay, get a life. Sounds like you need a good spanking.
I love that article! As a clicker trainer myself, and as a tiresome middle aged grandmother, I might know a thing or two about training – everything from co-workers, grandkids, dogs,cats and yes horses. I spent 21 years in the military and have a full and complete understanding of negative reinforcement and a “culture of correction”, so I am no well meaning hippie with a permisive attitude towards ground manners. Still, in this wonderful journey of life lessons, I came across clicker training and was shocked at how well it works. I took it as a course of study, with Alexandra Kurland – the premier equine clicker trainer in this world, as my primary teacher. She showed me that the second foundation lesson, after targeting is mastered, is the standing still (absence of mugging) lesson. This is reinforced daily, along with backing and head lowering, etc.
To write such a scathing article about equine clicker training and not know that the second foundation lesson is simply standing and not mugging – shows complete ignorance of this training technology (and it is a technology based on scientific research that is well over 50 years old). I would never presume to criticize Natural Horsemanship without at least viewing the first few Parelli DVDs!
Why do I love the article if I am a clicker trainer! It shows that the students of clicker training are clearly on to something good. When articles pop up (with increasing regularity) that are often negative – it generates discussion and curiosity. This article is bound to convert more people to training with positive reinforcement than ever before! I used to drill humans under the blazing sun on hot pavement with no reward except the hope that I would quit eventually – now I am a converted clicker trainer. My current students – no matter what species – learn much faster and more happily!
Just sayin!
If you knew a THING about clicker training you would know that one of the first things you teach your horse to do is not to mug you in training sessions.
Sure, If you dont do it properly this method can turn disastrous but with correct timing, precision and routine this can transform horses.
In a few sessions my horse has been transformed and i dont give a sh*t about what you uptight snobs say it works for so many people who are much happier than you are with your horses who you smack and beat. you’re just jealous of what they achieve.
never heard s!#t like that….. Another article from a person, who did not understand what clicker training is about….I am sorry for you…
Rewards are tools, just like your whip and bit. Any tool can be used effectively, just a it can be misused. If you misuse a whip and get incorrect behavior,is the whip to blame?
(please learn more about horse training before bashing something you clearly have no understanding of.)
It’s no crime to be ignorant. It’s questionable to critique others from that ignorance, however. I spent 20 years professionally perfecting pressure release methods … what we all did who also practiced punishment as a tool.
My background (non-horse)professionally in another field introduced me to +R methods with humans. It rather turned my thinking around regarding horses as well as the humans I worked with.
As has been noted in many of the correspondents’ comments, all the reasons stated have been answered.
As with any tool for training CT can be and is often in fact misused. Usually by those that do not bother to do more than attend a single clinic, or read a book and putting it down never pick it up again.
Like the orthodox horse handling you appear to be coming from if any training method is poorly studied, and poorly applied one will not get the results those who put come committed effort into it find.
I’m surprised you find geldings with erections. Dropping, yes. But a sustained erection would be rare indeed. What is common though is that CT trainers tend to do a great deal of groundwork. It both engages the horse intently with singular focus, and consequently certainly muscle groups relax. I can, doing groundwork with pressure release methods get exactly the same results with some geldings and stallions. Usually it occurs only after a sustained period of groundwork, say 20 to 30 minutes. It’s the lateral portion that most often triggers this natural response. If you examine the movements of a sexually aroused stallion there is a strong tendency to move laterally as part of the courting approach.
I found your article interesting, but lacking in depth of research and study. You may have it, but you did not offer it.
Finally, marker based training coupled with positive reinforcement while often using food does not always do so. I see horses that like being caught up because their owners, not ct trainers, are fond of giving them a good grooming. Also at feed time horses come running.
Also I, and most humans, work for rewards, and we make friendships that include massive amounts of positive reinforcement – or the relationship sours, or there is a perverse element if it does not.
The use of +R with horses is as natural as +R in human interactions, and has opened up an entire new world of communication. We who click, that is, mark a behavior, time and again see the sudden breakthrough when the horse discovers he can communicate with us TWO WAY.
Please study this subject further and comment again. Maybe another article? Critiquing the authors such as Peggy Hogan, Alexandra Kurland, or others. That we can control a horse skillfully is not much to brag about. We have done that for a couple of thousand years at least. That we can increase the quality and scope of communication is new, and very exciting. Try it.
it is not difficult to understand that the author of this article does not know exactly what clicker training is and how it works.
i train dogs and horses with the clicker and my clients told me that they now have an idea how to “say” things to their animals. finally the clicker gives them the opportunity to make their animals understand what they want them to do.
the clicker is not a secret button you can press and everything will be better.
the clicker training is a possability to communicate with your pet in a way it will understand. you can click dolphins, rats, cats, dogs, birds, horses and many ohter animals but you don´t have to. try it and make your own decision, it dosn´t hurt.
My mom is a 100% clicker trainer lover. I tried it for a while with my horse but decided it’s not really for me. Why? Because my mom tacks up and goes down to the ring to ride about the time I’m starting to groom my horse. By the time I get down to the ring, she is still at the mounting block. I work my horse for a good 20-30 minutes and she is still at the mounting block. I get off and untack my horse. She’s still there. I go to the grocery store and come back (20-30 min) and she is STILL at the mounting block! Sher may have the time to CT at the block all day, but I don’t.
My mom’s horse used to self-load onto the trailer right away – almost no hesitation. Then she bought him and started clicker training. It now takes 20 minutes, a lunge line and a bucket full of treats to get him on the trailer. Progress? I think not.
My horse is barefoot and while he was with me at college, he was trimmed by a woman who drove up, picked up each of his feet, trimmed them and left. Took probably 20 minutes while my horse took a nap in the crossties. Now that he’s back home with my mom trimming him, it takes her over an hour to trim his feet because as soon as she clicks for him picking up a foot, he slams it back down so that she will click again when he picks it up. I have seen my mom’s horse do the same thing in her training sessions – he reverts purposefully to “wrong” so that he can transition to “right” again to get another treat.
While we had some construction at home, we moved the horses to the barn where I work and I was told numerous times by other staff, the trainer and boarders how mouthy and pushy her horse is, but when these people tried to tell my mom this, it doesn’t make any sense. “He’s so great for me, she says, but as soon as the treats are gone, we had to be smacking his face away to lead him out to the field. He literally could not walk a straight line!
I always immediately notice a difference in my horse when my mom has worked with him – I can’t hug him or love him as he’s digging in my pockets and won’t take his nose off my hand.
I was have a psychology degree and want to get a master’s in animal behavior and took numerous classes about conditioning, I trained a rat in a skinner box, all of that fun stuff. But when presented with this evidence, I have to say it’s a rather clear choice which training method I’d like to use. My mom may have the time to work on standing still at the mounting block for two hours, but I don’t. And I have just as good a relationship with my horse as she, except that mine is also good when I’m not there.
There seems to be considerable misunderstanding about clicker training. One – it’s based on solid science. Two – bad habits can be taught by -R (pressure release – the common NH and traditional training method) some extremely dangerous.
I have used +R behavior marking very successfully with mouthy even biting horses to end the habit. It is a question of understand what behavior modification really is and a few simple principles that must apply – less in fact that -R methods.
Here’s a sample of what I mean, and I hope anyone having mugging and mouthy problems takes it to heart: One, of course charge the clicker, and do so according the Alexandra Kurland’s (and other good teachers’) method, over a barrier such as a stall door.
Once the horse is strongly reactive – it’s never taken me more than ten minutes. Start immediately on “safe treat acceptance.”
Read the words in quotes carefully – all three of them. Do NOT over a horse a treat and allow him to reach for it and take it. THAT is precisely what makes any horse a mugger, and in time a serious biter. He’s learned to make the “dispenser,” drop the treat.
So how do you do this? It’s easy, as Peggy Hogan teaches it. (Peggy is the “Best Whisper is a Click lady from California one of the best). Without cue, close a treat in your hand, put your hand out from your body (another absolute rule – never feed close to your body or the treat pouch or pocket).
Present the back of your hand to the horse’s nose … if he tries to find it wait. Wait wait wait. The instant he stops, click and turn your hand open and push the treat .. .PUSH the treat between his lips.
Do this as fast as you can. FAST. Make it five or six treats in quick succession.
Once you have the horse waiting for your OPEN HAND, you have a tool forever to refresh his memory should he get grabby again. Simply deliver a few treats in this training method.
Next you want the horse to NOT reach around at you for a treat. Stay straight. If you understand behavior modification with +R you know what to do … click and treat when his head and neck are aligned with the rest of his body. Obviously you could teach him to hold a particular angle for treat delivery if you wished, but straight makes more sense.
Timing, just as in NH or -R work, is essential to success. Catch the moment in the behavior that you want. You may take a natural movement and capture it in this way. Once you have it as a behavior … takes all of ten seconds, you can put a cue to it.
I laugh at the idea that someone is taking hours to get a horse to stand at the mounting block using clicker… they MUST be doing it wrong. I not only can teach a horse in under and hour to stand quietly but to move forward back and swing forehand or hindquarters for a perfect stance … I can call him from a distance to come to the block or go to the block even if I’m not there.
There is NO mystery to this. None. Anyone that thinks there is need only read the texts on behavior modification.
What Clicker Train does that often does not happen with traditional horse handling is that it demands you pay attention, that you are clear about your intent, that you know what you want and you plan the steps to get there and execute them.
What? That’s just like traditional work, isn’t it? No, traditional work lets you get away with being sloppy and blaming the horse. LOL Clicker training, my Bmark+R, simply does not work if you are sloppy.
Behavior marking is what pressure release horse handlers do … they just usually have the exquisite precision of the marker sound…the click. This is what trains the horse, not the treat.
And finally, the frosting on this treat cake. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE FOOD.
Just find what is a highly positive event for a horse and deliver it to him after he does the requested behavior and hears the click.
Clicker training is far far faster over all than -R work. The first few steps, the first few times of capturing a behavior, takes long than if you forced the horse, but once he’s got it, and most things take only seconds for him to understand will bring a click and a reward things really take off.
All problems I have had with clicker training a horse have been MY OWN FAULT because I didn’t know the rules. Once I learned them it was easy to overcome my clumsiness.
I just this past week taught a riding student of mine how to use Bmark+R to retrain a horse to stop his incessant mugging (he was forbidden hand feeding for years), and his nipping.
It took us all of 20 minutes because I was teaching it, not doing it, part of the time.
In 20 minutes the mugging and nibbling and biting was replaced by standing straight, holding his mouth still, waiting for the delivery of the treat.
For fun, because he was sticking in reinback, we did the first few steps of backing with only the clicker and treat method. We waited for 6 or seven minutes (a traditional trainer would have been tapping or rein pulling etc. after the first 6 seconds), and I caught the tiniest shift of weight to the rear. Click, treat.
In three more minutes he was backing nice and steady with no rein pressure, though the rider was on him. Just the spoken cue. It will be very simple to add the rein cue, but without taking slack out of the rein. Maybe next week … oh such tedium. LOL
Best wishes, Donluis35
A note on “dropping,” as geldings will do during clicker training. There are two reasons for this. One, they are very relaxed, and two, try doing intense ground work even with pressure release work and watch them drop as well.
It’s not the treat, or the click, it’s the prolonged ground work that is so often a part of clicker training, though it need not be.
I’ve taught a lot of geldings while mounted – mostly spook proofing, which Bmark+R is extremely good for, and none dropped while I was riding. Same animals did though when I had done over 20 minutes or so of ground work, especially a lot of lateral work.
This is common. Geldings will drop just from being groomed.
I’ve found it to be more common too with geldings that are in rehab – like ex broncs, or OTTBs. I guess the peace and quiet is so remarkable they just fall into it wholeheartedly.
They also droop their lower lip, and tend to fall asleep. It’s not the clicker training, it’s the peace and trust and gentle handling that so many Clicker trainers focus on.
I am so happy to see so many responses from people who use “the learning theory.” I say learning theory instead of clicker train because we do not rely on the clicker for these behaviors like some of you may think. When there is an emergency, you can bet we aren’t looking for our clicker. However, the clicker does offer faster results and training the horses to load can quicken the process. Not only does it produce faster results, but it also cements the behavior. And for those who say it only produces tricks, but not solutions to behavior problems: that is incorrect. I have used the learning theory (with a clicker) for both dogs and horses who have behavioral problems. It’s a science. Yes- zoo animals can still maul a person if the trainer is not skilled enough or performs something incorrectly (lion comment). However, many animals who’d soon rather eat us, are trained every day using the learning theory. You don’t think your domesticated horse can do the same? Come on, give them some credit.
Then we have people saying that they want them only to work for us, not for food. Again- this is an incorrect assumption. For those who use fear methods, horses are working for safety (primary reward). This is the same principle for those who are working for food (again, primary reward). That isn’t to say that we always need food readily available for our horses to listen. Once the horse understands what we expect from them, we can phase out the food as the clicker is only necessary in the learning process. Also, bonds are so much stronger when training without fear or pain. It’s so awesome to have a horse choose to be around you and choose to do as you say, rather than work for you out of fear of what will happen if the horse chooses not to.
I could probably go on and on about this topic. I am thrilled to see so many using the learning theory method, as it isn’t as a popular method yet as it has become for dogs.
To those “bashers” and to the writer of the article, your immaturity and ignorance shines. If you choose not to train using the scientifically sound learning theory, then by all means don’t. “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”
Katie Kelly, Certified Professional Dog Trainer
This article is laughable. I’ve owned and trained horses for nearly 35 years, and was a riding instructor during the 70′s and 80′s. I now train dogs professionally. All mammals learn in the same way. And, if you don’t want a 1200 pound animal buggering you for treats, then use the training method *properly* and it will not happen. This article was obviously written by someone who has only partial exposure to clicker training and does not fully understand it. You know what they say – a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It is, because it leads to this kind of misinformation being perpetrated on the public. My advice is, if you want to learn about clicker training, and you don’t have the time or inclination to go to college for a degree in a behavioral science as I did, then read Karen Pryor’s book “Don’t Shoot the Dog.” It explains the science behind the method, which, incidentally, has been used to train dogs, cats, chickens, horses, whales, dolphins, goats, alpacas, and – well, MAMMALS. By the way, my clicker trained horse does not mug me for treats – you can also use clicker training to teach an animal NOT to be obnoxious about food-seeking! He does, however, stand stock still like a gentleman before exiting his stall or entering his paddock, and he also stands nicely while I unclip his lead, remaining in place until I tell him he’s “free” to run off and have a nice roll for himself.
Thanks, you inspired me to blog
I totally agree with horse diva. There are many horse owners who think that horses should be trained differently to other animals because they are the only animals who get nippy and bargy around food. A dolphin trainer at Seaworld told me the dolphins can get pushy when they first start to train them. They, like horse clicker trainers, have to train the animal not to be this way around food. All animals can be a problem when trained with food.
Horses are big and powerful with large teeth, once they become nippy they people give up using treats and go back to the traditional method. With other animals there is no alternative, dolphins will just swim away. Also can you imagine trainers using a bit in a dolphin’s or dog’s mouth. Horses are the only animals where a bit and a whip are acceptable to use in their training.
Clicker training, or operant conditioning as it is known because many different sounds are used, is used with so many animals. Zoos use a target and a bridgeing sound with reptiles, rhinos and even sharks. Bees are even being trained to find explosives in airports. Rats are trained to find landmines. It is a powerful training method. Horse do not stand alone in the animal kingdom.
I have horses but don’t ride. People say I should ride them they are not pets.Most horses are pets, they are animals kept for pleasure. If those of us who train to do tricks dressed up in fancy clothes and competed in things with fancy names like Grand prix or Puissance maybe the snobs in the horse world would see us differently. Clicker horse training is here to stay and more and more are using it.
I just came across this article. Clearly from what you wrote, you have no understanding of clicker training or learning theory or you wouldn’t have written such an ill-educated article.
When clicker training is done correctly, it is a very useful tool and can be used with any species, horses included. It’s true food reinforcements can be abused and misused. For instance if it’s used as a bribe and the animal isn’t taught to respect your space it can be dangerous. But to make a general statement that it is bad, is so disappointing and misconstrued. I urge you to get your facts straight and learn about the science behind the marker signal before making such statements. Check out Alexandra Kurland or Dr. Emily Weiss’s work.
On a personal level, I have personally worked magic with previously dangerous, abused, and ill-manered horses through the use of clicker training to have them become trusting, willing partners.
This article was written in such a childish manner.
You obviously have no understanding of learning theory.