Hunters, Not a Sport
If there is one part of English riding that I loath, its the Hunters. Not because there isn’t some style, grace, and purpose; I think everyone should start in the hunter ring. But, the politics involved in the pre-green through regular working hunters is a joke. I have been to many horse shows where you didn’t have to watch the rounds; as long as there wasn’t anything major that happened (refusal), you knew who would be in the top three to five by the names of riders, and sometimes, the owners.
Anymore, hunters are a political, status driven competition with barely any merit. If winning proof is subjective, can judged sports cannot truly be sports? That isn’t to say hunter riders aren’t athletes, just that hunter shows, because of the judging, today function more as exhibitions, rather than sporting competitions.
If winning proof is subjective, can judged sports truly be sports?
I’m squarely laying blame on the politics.
The hunter world is a dirty world, lots of pressure to have the right “look”, the right amount of flash in the horse, the right size, color, brand. I mean, what happened to all the thoroughbreds that zipped around a hunter course and made it look more like a HUNT course than an outside, diagonal, outside, single fence, diagonal, boreathon?
There is a definite importance to start in the hunter ring whether you are a kid or an adult. The hunter ring is where you earn your wings. But, there comes a time when you have to question the actual pertinence of such competition.
The hunter argument is that accuracy and perfection are derived from a great hunter course. But, if you really watch 30-40 hunter rounds in a row – good, great, and mediocre – they all start to look the same (I don’t care what commentary you are listening to).
Hunters should be used as a stepping stone for horse and rider. I will never consider hunters a sport, and except for green horses and green riders using the hunter ring for experience, miles, and steps, hunters are a joke.
If you want to jump….ride in the jumper ring; fear shouldn’t keep you from trying….the great thing about it….you aren’t being judged.
I ride hunters and it takes a lot of skill to ride around a hunter course. Just because the fences aren’t all crazy doesn’t mean it is easy. You have to keep a rhythm throughout the entire course and the fences aren’t always small. I do the amateur owners and the fences are 3’6″ and there are a few conformation and regular working hunters in the barn that jump 3’9″ to 4′ so try taking a jumper through a course like that without them throwing their head in the air and acting like lunatics!!!!!! Hunters deserve more credit jumpers can run around a course looking like crap, hunters have to be under control and relaxed.
I agree that there is skill to hunters….I have done both, but prefer jumpers for the exact reason that this author described. To be a really good jumper you also have to have the horse balanced and in control, AS WELL AS fast and clean…. The rider also has to have correct for for the horse to jump well. It takes just as much skill, if not more to be an upper level jumper. The problem is that you get these riders that ride their horses dangerously and incorrectly, but they will never make it to the higher levels and will probably end up in an accident.
April, maybe you didn’t understand the article. The fact that the courses are easy are part of why the hunters go around the course more under control and relaxed. The courses are set at even strides, there is no adjusting, you do have to keep an even pace but that is it. Once the pace is set you just sit there. Many jumpers could go around a hunter course without acting crazy. The adjustments, tight turns, and other technical details is what makes the jumpers look crazy. I did hunters for many years and made started doing jumpers about 4 yrs ago and am having more fun than ever and feel like a much better rider. I don’t get as many ribbons that would the only downfall.
You should point out in the article that is American “Hunters” in England it is not judged that way. Over here first you have a flat section where they want to see the walk, very little trot, the canter and the gallop. Second part is conformation where the horse is judged on whether it could stand a whole days hunting. Third you have the jumping which can be in any course, never had one as simple as the one you describe, the fences just have to be rustic, and form does not count clear rounds do. Then all three scores are added it up to find the winner.
I love the “Hunter” vs. “Hunt” part. What happened to the Hunt? It always amazes me that hunters don’t allow dogs at their shows. LOL. What on earth would those horses do in a HUNT field with dogs running and barking at their feet?
I definitely agree that hunters is a good place to start, but it is also a good place to end. Move on if you want to learn how to actually ride a horse and have some fun.
I think hunters are good start, but how about a FOXHUNT! that would test skill and enable judges to SHUT the F up, and help riders seriously improve there skill!…..then the pretentious ass’s would think twice,……. see we could kill to birds with one stone!:P
I laughed my whole way through reading this article. i almost want to print it out and post it up at the barn i ride at! I am an eventer! I evented my QH/ Haflinger cross for 5 years before he passed
– I started out in the Hunter Ring competing when I was a kid and the experience was both great and very hurtful. I watched how poorly the “judges” “judge” if you can call it that! Recently i purchased a youngster. He has been to TWO shows with me, both sadly enough were hunter schooling shows. These however are what he needs. I watched a judge pin the girl who lost her stirrups 3 times during a class who also kept herself on the incorrect diagnol and wrong lead both ways, pinned 3rd before the flawless grey i watched with his rider! I hate hunters! Everyone should event!
Man, I totally got a whole different vibe from reading the hunter vs jumper article than some if not most. I totally missed the “hunter courses are easy/lame/baby-ish/whatever” argument. What I got out of it is that the JUDGING of the hunter rounds is absurdly subjective and relies not so much on how well you rode your round but who the judge standing in the middle of the ring with the clipboard is. It’s no mystery why the same winning names are called time and time again round after round. That one rider who consistently places either possesses the look the judge likes, the type of horse the judge likes, and/or maybe that winning kid is the daughter of someone they play cards with on Wednesday nights. You never know. I don’t like hunter shows for that reason alone and my kid places well. Does my kid place well bc she’s an awesome rider? I’d like to think so but I’ve seen some shady sleight of hand going on in the center of the ring at times. I’ve watch too many kids ride seemingly perfect rounds on perfectly turned-out horses and still leave the ring ribbonless.
I wholeheartedly agree with Gretchen, comment #8. The Hunter class, perhaps outside of the consideration of actual hunting application (dog interaction, actual fox hunt, etc), represents a perfectly fine training and competition environment for kids. It stresses basics in form and horsemanship, and is a great general introduction to individual oriented sports. Tennis and golf for instance might not inculcate the same level of responsibility as dealing with a living thing and an all day event. However, my clear and repeated experience, especially in smaller more ad hoc shows, betrays evidence exactly as Gretchen denotes. Those parents and children who are more well known within, more fixtures of and perhaps benefactors to, the barn and/or town where the competition is taking place is blatantly favored and catered to. Clients of instructors attached to that barn or a prevalent local one also receive favors. Of course, these are usually the same people. It always smacks of Little League and children burdened with being their parents proxy and emotional conduit. The somewhat static and calm nature of the course work along with the required consistency of movement and appearance naturally accentuate the reliance on physical appearance of both the horse and the child. The values exemplified are inherently shallow, completely subjective and easily corrupt. At it’s worst children are taught it’s who you know and how much you spend. Hunter class competitions can frequently be compared to beauty pageants.
Great site btw. I’m a total neophyte and bystander parent. I dig the info, attitude and inclusiveness.
Thanks!
Oooh, I agree with Cara #7. Every eventer I’ve ever met has been a whole different species of rider. They’re crazy but crazy in a fun way. I love hanging out in eventing barns. That said, I’m done.
So, it has been established that hunters are NOT a sport. However, there are a lot of people who like to do it because they’re too afraid to do anything else. There are people I’ve met who do hunters because they think it’s “fun” (yeah, I know–they’re nuts). For those people, I think there should be two divisions in the hunter classes–one for thoroughbreds and one for warmbloods. at all shows. Period. There are just too many judges nowadays who won’t pin anything that isn’t a warmblood. There should be a special place for the thoroughbreds who were the original breed for Hunters. That would also create a new job opening for all the thoroughbreds at the track who are bound for slaughter. They could be re-trained and reliably re-sold as “TB-only” hunters. Then all they have to do is lope around a 2’6″ course and be taken care of. They don’t even have to be reliably sound to do that. I saw plenty of half-lame older horses win the Pre-Adult/Pre-Child divisions when I was a kid provided their rider was skinny enough and had the right saddle.
Jumpers are just horses and riders who couldn’t handle the hunter ring. YOU guys make ME SICK okay hunters way better then jumpers and it better for the horse just becasue show jumping is in the big dosn’t mean that hunters are not a sport.
okay Barb T. you do know that we have to get that number of stirdes in and keep the same pace and if you add down the line then we have to add everwhere you jumpers are CRAP. You don’t know S about hunters
I agree with Jackie. Hunters are amazing. Jumpers is just how fast you can get over the jumps. Hunters is based on how well you do it, and HUNTER ACTUALLY REQUIRES SKILL.
Amanda, You’re wrong. I would believe you if I saw some hunters doing jumper-style courses. However, all you have in hunters is lines and singles with big, easy turns. SOMETIMES there’s a bending line–OOOO! If the A rater shows had the hunters do jumper courses, then I’d give hunters some credit. I did hunters for YEARS and I once got a bug in my eye over the first fence of a 3′ Childrens Hunter course at an A show and did the rest of the course basically blind–and I got all my strides and all my changes and took home first place. I could never do that in a jumper course. I would like to see some Hunter courses with a rollback or two and some 90-degree turns. Jumpers know how to ride a line–we just know more than one way to ride it.
Wow, there is no need to be vicious or petty! This, I feel, is one of the many downfalls of specific ‘disciplines’!
I have lived and competed in America and Britain, ranging from barrels, to polocrosse, to classical spanish dressage, to eventing… and yes – both English and American hunter classes.
While I have a warmblood (I’m 5’11, give me a break!), I do not have a warmblood for the very sake of saying ‘Oh, he’s so-and-so’s line’. There is extremely biased judging in the US hunter rings, and I find many of the girls are trained to be snobs. Perhaps they started the sport with a genuine passion, but by the time they’re teens, that has been sucked out of them. I don’t mean to generalize, but most girls are catty – I’m sure we’ve all been subject to the warm-up ring gossip. I’ve seen people with horses of flawless confirmation, talented riders (and horses) and discipline to shame the army place last – because they didn’t have, for example, the Ariat ticket or pink papers.
If this applies to you, good luck! Hunting probably isn’t the best discipline for you! Myself, I’ve found contentment in my dressage ring, the cross country course (and before foxhunting was banned) my local fields.
Kay in a hunter course we have to rollbacks to each frickin jump. I would like to see you do that and still look the way we do over jumps. Instead of the crap that you look like.
I don’t know what planet you live on, but I’ve never seen a rollback in a hunter course in this country in my life. I’ve seen rollbacks in Equitation courses SOMETIMES in the higher levels at AA rated shows. Also, riding should be about function and form should come second. The fact that Hunters are judged on form first and function second is a sad state of affairs. Riding should never be a beauty pageant. I doubt Jackie even knows who I am or what I look like when I ride, which further proves my point–Hunter riders tend to judge other riders primarily on the way they look and think that the way another rider looks is a valid and acceptable form of criticism. This is shallow and detrimental to the sport of riding. Oftentimes, it is also hypocritical–take George Morris, for instance. He feels he can criticize every rider he comes across but he himself cannot even live up to his own standards in his old and decrepit state.
God what planet do you live on. OF course there are rollbacks, for starter you had to have been trained by the most stupieds trainer. If haven’t been to a real hunter show then you don’t know what we are talking about. For starters its judge mainly on what the horse and you look like and how well you preform together. Your basically showing off you skills as a rider. IN jumper as i said before you could never do that. OH and do you know how bad show jumping is for horse. The way the hold there heads so high causes future back problems. You wanna know why because I did show jumping for about 5 years because it was the only thing avaible for me to do at the time. And I hated it. So before you start calling it hypocritical you really need to see who shallow.
Im with Jackie on this one – completely.
The shows I’ve been too – there are rollbacks. There are 90-degree turns.
Hunters are judged based on the degree to which they meet an ideal standard of manners, style, and way of going.
On the other hand, jumper classes are scored based entirely on a numerical score determined only by whether the horse attempts the obstacle, clears it, and finishes the course in the allotted time. It doesn’t matter how well you do it. As long as you got a brave horse and can grab mane – your fine.
I believe what Jackie is talking about is Equitation, not Hunters. She should consult the USEF rule book on Hunter course designs. Equitation is judged on the rider and how well the rider meets the standards for an equitation rider as set by the current judge. I also think there’s something to be said for the Grand Prix showjumpers who compete well into their late teens and sometimes twenties–if showjumping was so bad for the horse, you would think they would break down quicker. Also, Hunters are not allowed to put any protection on their horses’ legs when jumping–which greatly increases the risk for injury. All jumper riders worth their salt teach their horses to move properly and on the bit–even though it’s not a criteria for Jumpers. I’ve seen hunters be penalized for being on the bit–the classic hunter look says that the horse’s nse should poke out and they should keep an even pace throughout the course. If the horse only has to canter around at the same pace with their nose out, they never have to learn to adjust their stride. Jumpers need to be adjustable at all times in order to get their turns and changes right.
I agree that, in the lower levels of jumpers, it is possible to get around a course and leave all the fences up without any real skill. But anything of 4′ is a different story entirely. Also, if you are criticizing Jumper riders, you are criticizing all the riders who have ever represented and will ever represent the United States of America in the Olympic Games. And if you think you’re better than all of those riders, you have an unbelieveable amount of arrogance and it’s just a matter of time before it bites you in the ass. Also, there are no Hunter classes in Germany–which is the leading country in horsemanship in the entire world. They have more awards and medals than any other country and riding is a government-sponsored sport in Germany. If Hunters were so wonderful, you think the Germans would pick it up. Yet the don’t. They think Hunters is a big joke. Which it is.
The whole German thing actually isn’t true. My cousin just moved here from Germany – and she did 3’6 Hunter shows over there.
About the whole way of going Hunter is – I believe its still way better than Jumper. Hunter goes around in a smooth way – not slow, not the same pace – but smooth.
And Im not saying Im better than the Olympic riders. Ha. Fuck I know Im not. Even though they are Jumpers – I think they are better. But just because your a jumper, and your not in the Olympics – people tend to believe they are still better than Hunters – simply because Jumpers are in the Olympics.
Plus – Jackie isn’t talking about Equitation. She’s talking about Hunters. The show I’ve been too – you don’t just sit there and lope around the courses. Of course – we don’t speed through there like crazy people on our horses – but we still adjust our strides. Even at the Hunter Schooling Shows – in the 2′ I see kids adjusting their strides to each line.
Okay I’m not criticizing people who jump in the olypimcs. I’m just saying that before you go telling everyone that hunter is not a real sport may you should try it. Too all the people out there before you say that hunters are just stepping stones to riding. Then maybe you should try going to a real hunter show and talk to some hunter jumpers there. Jumpers are just horses and riders who couldn’t handle the hunter areana. If you have a problem with hunter then keep it to yourself, remeber alot of people do hunter. OH and people in Germany do ride hunter. It just over in Europe they pay bigger for show jumpers.
Jackie, if you had been paying attention to my earlier posts you would know that I rode strictly Hunters and Equitation for 5 years (all through high school and 1 year in college before I got bored of it). I was programmed by some of the most well-renouned hunter trainers in North America. I went to every single A rated Hunter show on the west coast and showed in the Short Stirrup, Long Stirrup, Pre-Adult, Pre-Childrens, Childrens and Adult Amateur divisions. I’m not speaking from inexperience by any means. I’ve never in my life met a German rider who spoke highly of Hunters.
Also Amanda and Jackie are yet to refute my claim that show jumpers compete longer, live longer and have less soundness issues than Hunters.
And there’s a reason why people pay more for Jumpers than Hunters in Europe—IT’S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT JUMPERS ARE BETTER THAN HUNTERS!
Jackie, I am full aware that a lot of people do Hunters. It makes up the majority of all the classes at Hunter/Jumper shows in this country. You are your people are conformists–everybody does Hunters. But what’s popular is not always right and what’s right is not always popular. I did not write this article but I stand behind the people who did. And I stand behind my fellow Jumper riders who are repeatedly looked down upon, admonished and criticized by the masses of mainstream, uncreative, and mindless drones who seem to think Hunter riding is great because it’s safer than any other form of jumping and, above all, because their trainer told them so.
I appreciate Jackie and Amanda’s attempts to “defend” their fellow conformists, but their arguments are full of holes and do not hold water. Also, defending the establishment that is hunter riding is equal to defending a giant oil company against the war-torn nations it raped and pillaged in order to line it’s own pockets. There are hundreds of magazines and articles out there that praise hunters and only one that exposes it for what it truly is. You can’t blame a minority of downtrodden people for trying to defend themselves.
Everyone should understand that whether you like Hunters or not, it’s the judging system, not the riders, that are useless. There are many good riders and horses in the Hunter ring, but because of whack, political judging, good horses and riders are not necessarily the people winning blue ribbons.
In short, most judged sports are lame. Judged sports cannot truly be sports, because there is no objectivity.
Hunters and Equitation are a VERY important way to start you huntseat riding hobby or career. Choosing to go on to the Jumper ring is “moving up”. Plenty of bad or ineffective riders end up in the jumper ring as well, but they are not judged. In the jumper ring, you can’t win if you are a bad rider (unless you have a made, push-button horse).
Jumper riders are NOT always people who couldn’t cut it in the Hunter ring, but there is no doubt that does happen.
However, it is more common for a horse to move to the Jumper ring because they aren’t “pretty” enough, “quiet” enough, or “steady” enough for the Hunter ring.
Some of the BEST Grand Prix Jumper riders, and most of the upper level Jumper riders have all started in the Hunter ring. I started in the Hunter ring. I also won some big Hunter classes I shouldn’t have, and I also didn’t place in classes where the judge was doling out favors.
Equitation is important as is the discipline needed to ride a Hunter course.
The judging system is what discredits Hunters. Hunter judging at the big shows (HITS shows, etc) is a joke, but unfortunately, lame judging doesn’t just happen at the big shows either; the politics fall even on the smaller A shows, even smaller B shows, and often times, the open shows.
It is not a question of Hunters or Jumpers being better, everyone has their likes.
But, I see no-one here who loves Hunters and hates Jumpers standing up for the judging system in the Hunter ring.
Gals?
And though inspired cross talk is healthy, being catty is not.
Sorry I got sidetracked. I am sort of a Jumper zealot. Hunters may very well be fun for some, but it should not be considered a sport and lumped in with other non-judgemental, objective sports. I strayed from the main argument. I too would like to see Jackie or Amanda defend the judging in the Hunter ring with a real, mature argument. Saying that jumper riders “look like crap” does not qualify. That’s like a lawyer telling a judge that their client is not guilty of assault because the other guy is a “poo poo head”.
Thank you for understanding, I respect and also love to watch jumpers. I think what you do is really cool. But I would like for you to respect hunters. I know that some of the judges can be unfair, but not all of them.
Okay forget that first commet I hadn’t read the whole post.
The reason why we talk the way we do is because were mad. We beleive that hunters should be accepted as a sport. You would be mad too if someone said that jumper is not a sport. But as Amanda said its because show jumping is in the Olympics.
We may have some bad judges but that doesn’t mean that all of the judges are bad. If you really want to try the hunter judging system then you should try showing over on the East Coast.
I think that your problem is that you just don’t like it that hunter is based on how well you and your horse preform. Instead of how fast you can get around a course and if you knock any down.
You have your opinions and we have ours. Just because a minority of people say that hunter is not a sport doesn’t mean that its not. You’re just basing you opinion on how it is judged, instead on how it is done.
I’ve never met a hunter judge that I felt judged anybody fairly and objectively. Usually, the class is pinned before anyone rides the course. What I love about jumpers is that you can win a class simply by showing up and doing your very best. In the hunter ring, you can’t come to a show as an unknown and leave a champion–you have to have shown before, people have to know you well, the judges have to know you, you have to be with the right barn, the right rumors have to have been spread about you, etc. So much of winning in the Hunter ring is done before anybody ever enters the ring. Therefore, people are not being judged objectively. It’s more like Ballet or competitive cheerleading than Soccer, Basketball, Swimming, Boxing, or other olympic-caliber sports events. A Ballerina may be able to execute all the dance moves necessary to win a competition but will never win if she is 5’10″ and 200 pounds. I think Hunters is great for people who like to be judged by others. But I don’t think it promotes athleticism, so it cannot be considered a sport if there is no athleticism involved. I got into Jumpers because I didn’t want to be judged anymore. I did Hunters, breed shows and Dressage and just was looking for a way to compete without having to appeal to other people. I compete to challenge myself and my horse–and I could care less what other people think about me. I also am too frugal to pay twice as much for board just to be in the “right” barn with the “right” trainer in order to win. Therefore, I don’t think Hunters has done anything to earn my respect. And, Jackie, you didn’t think what I did was “really cool” a few days ago–you said I “rode like crap”. Make up your mind and stick with it.
Excuse me for saying this but I think that you are wrong. Just because you have never met the right trainger doesn’t mean you have the right to say that hunter is not a sport. Yes we focus on what the rider and horse look like together, but we also judge on how the horse preformes and how you best show them off.
You said that it is not a althletic sport but isn’t any form of riding and althletic sport. I think that you’re main problem is that you just don’t care for hunters. Because that judge unfairly.
You know what I’am very tired of having to tell someone that just because YOU don’t think that it’s fair doesn’t mean that it is. In all sports there will be some judges that judge unfairly. It doesn’t matter if it’s horseback riding.
I also think that your problem is, is that you prefer the sports that judge you on you athleticism instead on how they look like. Well since that is your opinion hears a thought just keep it to yourself, not everyone wants to keep on listing to it.
Jackie,
Not all sports have judges that judge unfairly. In fact, the most popular sports in the United States don’t even HAVE judges–Basketball, Football, Soccer, Swimming, Track. There are referees to make sure nobody hurts anybody else or breaks the rules. And it’s not that I want to be judged on my athleticism–I don’t want to be judged AT ALL. Jumpers have people to track the time and make sure you go through the timers, wait for the buzzer and don’t knock down rails or have refusals.
You may feel that Hunters are fair but that doesn’t mean that it actually is. You may want to consult a dictionary definition of fairness and then compare it to the definition of judgement and then apply those definitions to Hunters and determine whether or not the definitions apply to Hunters in ALL CASES AND CIRCUMSTANCES. Just so you know, I feel the same way about Hunters as I feel about Gymnastics. Two Gymnasts can do the same routine but one will place higher sheerly because the judges liked her/him better.
I will continue to debate this issue until I feel that I have been adequately proven wrong. It’s entirely your decision to listen or not. Nobody is forcing you to debate me.
No nobod is forcing me. But since YOU don’t want to be judge thats fine for you. Not everyone has to be like you. We have our own opinions and I would like for you to respect the fact that hunter do judge on how the horse and rider look. If you don’t like then fine you don’t like it. But I don’t see how you have the right to call hunter not a sport.
LOL! I’ve ridden hunters for 20 years and totally agree. When I first started riding hunters it was much different than it is now. The judging system is horrible these days. I don’t enter a hunter ring anymore, I just show jumpers and maybe eventing soon.
I have one retired hunter who was my A/O hunter and did well in the regular working hunters many, many years ago. The scene is much different now and the competition isn’t fairly judged. There is much to say for a horse and rider that can go around a hunter course and ride great. But, it doesn’t matter how good you ride now. It’s the clothes your wearing, the trainer you have, and the brand on your horse.
There is a new hunter division that is really cool and hopefully will revitalize the hunter discipline. I can’t remember what it is called, but it’s like derby hunters. Much more technical and field hunter like. Almost a cross between hunters/equitation/jumpers. I would check it out and if all the judges were fired and new ones hired, I would consider riding in that division.
BTW, I have shown extensively on the East Coast. It’s all the same honey, bad judging across the country.
Jackie, as a citizen of the united states of america I have a right to speak my mind whenever I want. I also have the right to give my respect to thoses things that I feel deserve my respect and withhold my respect from things that I don’t feel are deserving of it. I feel I have re-iterated my original argument many times. If you feel you need reasons for why I believe Hunters is not a sport, you may consult my previous postings. This argument has reached a dead end and I feel no new ideas or arguments are coming from either of us. It’s become the equivalent of the “are not-are too” arguments often seen by elementary school children on the playground–and these sorts of arguments should be left to people much younger than I who have yet to learn how to correctly structure an argument or debate an issue. It is my belief and the belief of my colleagues that I have presented a more structured, logical, objective and reasonable argument than you have. What I respect or don’t respect isn’t really at issue here. What’s at issue is whether or not hunters and their judging can be qualified as a “sport” when held to the standards of other non-equestrian sports. If I were you, I would have made attempts to compare Hunters to other judged sports–that would have been more convincing than trying to justify it as is. I also might have cited how many top-level jumper riders excelled in hunters before moving on to jumpers–that also may have increased it’s validity. I guess I was waiting for you to really present me with some irrefutable evidence or a sound and well-researched argument. Unfortunately, this has not happened and I am, frankly, bored and feel unchallenged by the arguments you have presented me with. So I am discontinuing my involvement in debates with you.
Very well then, I do know that as a citizen you have your rights. But still that does not say that just because you do not like the sport doesn’t mean that other people do not like to sport. You’re entiteled to your opinions and I’m entitled to mine. So lets just leave it at that.
Kay you poor thing! Hunters is not a true sport. The day I see a hunter rider do a 90degree turn in a course ill pee my pants… sorry girls but if you think your doing a 90 degree turn in a hunter course then you a truly not doing one.. rollbacks ive seen few and far between. Plus in a hunter ring you jump the roll back in the middle straight then turn and do your pretty little cirle to your next fence… jumpers know how to jump their horse on an angle to get to the next jump within strides… You know in hunters you can school 3-4 times before your course and practice 30 thousand times over those fences to ensure your picture perfect little pony will jump them so you can look “perfect” to the judge… Jumpers you have schooling jumps the first time your horse sees the course is when he/she is in mid air over the fences..please take a hunter to an event or a jumper show and tell me how you do? Hunters are what they are…eventing is what it is…. jumpers are what they are….
Thanks cara!
>>And there’s a reason why people pay more for Jumpers than Hunters in Europe—IT’S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT JUMPERS ARE BETTER THAN HUNTERS!<<
You can’t compare American ‘Hunters’ and American ‘Jumpers’ with anything in Europe because we don’t have anything that resembles those show classes in Europe.
European Hunters are a TYPE of horse (just as a stock horse is a type of horse). They are SPORT HORSES. In fact, they are the *original* sporthorse – the Hunters’ Improvement Society (now Sporthorse Breeders of Great Britain) is the world’s oldest sport horse association. Likewise, they are also the original warmblood: sizeable, upstanding animals with excellent conformation and the ability to jump obstacles that are big, wide and tricky with confidence and safety.
From what I have seen of ‘hunters’ in the US, they would not get within a sniff of the ribbons in Europe. Our Hunters are expected to live up to their name – yes, they actually go out and follow hounds across country. Now *that* is a sport – it requires initiative, bravery, judgement and skill, all exerted on the spot, in unforeseen circumstances and over solid obstacles, not fiddling round a course of low knock down jumps in the safety of a show ring. I’d like to see “Jackie” try a day out with our local hunt – maybe then she’d understand what ‘hunter’ and ‘sport’ really mean.
In Europe, jumping is under FEI rules. It isn’t a “showing” class as it is in the US. It IS a sport. And since hunting is where most showjumpers and eventers (human AND equine) get their basic education, saying that “in Europe jumpers are better than hunters” means nothing – a good hunter generally makes a good showjumper
My wife and I spend a fair amount of time at our local hunter shows. They’ve been fun–we get to spend time together with our horses and friends while working some riding fundamentals and training. We’re not our for ribbons and we’re not going to the Olympics anytime soon, but that’s not our goal. We have horses because we love horses, and so we can get away from the BS that makes the daily grind frustrating.
Having participated in sports (baseball, rugby, wrestling, swimming and soccer) my entire life, I understand the point about the judges or referees being subjective. There is room for unfairness and missed or wrong calls, but also room for recognizing the subtle nuances that allow the sports to be what they should be: complex, challenging and enjoyable.
One comment: Everyone believes their discipline is the best or the most challenging. If you do well in your discipline, you should be proud, and it seems many of you are. This is evidenced by the postings here
But, how about if you don’t like the other disciplines, don’t participate. Granted, there are valid ethical discussions that should be had concerning certain equestrian disciplines, but here I’m only talking about pure, personal preference.
One question: Citizen K., what sports do you see as valid? I would assert that refereed sports would certainly qualify as ‘judged.’ Referees evaluate painted lines and written rules, but also context and intent. While they’re not called ‘judges’, referees’ subjective calls and decisions–whether judging a ‘line out,’ ‘personal foul,’ ‘tying up’ or ‘foul ball’–can decide the entire game or match.
Besides, if we eliminate the “judged” equestrian sports, all we’d have left is trail riding, which, truth be told, would eliminate the difficult and controversial ethics discussions, the avoidable equine and rider deaths and injuries, and unite the equestrian community under a common ‘discipline.’
Happy Riding to all y’all,
Jeremy in NC
Sorry–in the third sentence I meant “We’re not OUT for ribbons.”
J
Hi Jeremy in NC,
Thanks for your post. I’m happy to see a man and husband checking out, well, anything equestrian.
To answer your question, “what sports do you see as valid?” I have several explanations for you:
There are two types of judges within sports.
1. Judges who decide who the winner is.
2. Judges who ensure rules are being followed.
In my opinion, for the most part “sports” that fall under the #1 definitely have less validity. The point being, the winner isn’t necessarily the best, nor did they perform the best. There is a very good chance many other factors played into that win (i.e. politics, preferences, boredom, ADD….) Examples:
1. A gymnast
2. A figure skater
3. A hunter rider
Whereas sports that fall under #2 are winning because whether or not they are the best ever, they did in fact do something better than anyone else. Examples:
1. A runner winning a race
2. A swimmer winning a race
3. A jumper rider jumping a course the fastest and of course clean.
Within equestrian sports there are not a whole lot of options that don’t hold a lot of subjectivity.
1. Jumpers
2. Two phases within eventing (jumpers & cross country)
3. Barrel Racing
4. Flat Racing
5. Steeplechasing
Of those, eventing still has a judged portion of their event in the dressage phase. Therefore, eventing can also be subjective. However, the scores of the two non-judged portions will have a large effect on the outcome of the competition.
Interestingly, trail riding IS a judged sport within many of the breed shows. It’s a trail class. That’s a whole different conversation!
There is no doubt that there is a large amount of skill and talent within the hunter ring. I will not argue the importance of both hunters and equitation as a foundation of riding and increasing your skill as a rider. The biggest problem within the hunter world is that there is no uniformity within the judging.
While I still argue the validity of true winners within a judged sport, the fact that the hunter ring is probably one of the most subjective and political “sports” that is judged is my biggest problem. I have seen too many good riders ignored in the ring because they didn’t have the right trainer, the right color horse for the judge, and I have even seen patterns on judges preferring navy coats over any other color.
I don’t have a large amount of experience on smaller, local hunter shows. The big shows are the place that I have experienced the most political judging within the sport. Winning means nothing, as does loosing. Where is the sport in that?
Jumpers have a course of jumps they must jump in the correct order, without knocking them down, within a pre-determined time. This is very straightforward and the winner is clear and without question.
Riding is supposed to be fun, whether you show or don’t. Hunter riding is a sport, the competition is questionable. However, if you are showing and enjoying yourself and your horse it doesn’t really matter; especially if you aren’t out for ribbons. It would just be nice to see some standard within hunter judging that would offer a little more validity for me to see the competition as a sport.
I hope that answers your question.
Again, Jeremy, it is refreshing to hear about a husband so involved! Thanks for your comment and keep the BS away with horses – it’s the best medicine!
Keren,
I’ve seen European hunters and I wholeheartedly agree that the American hunters don’t hold a candle to them.
Jeremy,
I know the kind of local shows your talking about and there are a few in my area like that. It doesn’t really feel like a competition though. It’s more of a tailgate party/BBQ with some jumping and ribbons thrown in. The ones I’ve been to are populated by middle-aged people new to riding and who mainly own bay thoroughbreds–horses who wouldn’t win in an A show hunter ring (through no fault of their own). Fun? yes. Competitive? no.
In my opinion it doesn’t really matter riding is riding. You have your opinion and other people have theirs. If you don’t like hunter then fine you don’t like hunter.
Yes we judge on how the horse and rider looks like. But jumpers are not all the athletic as you say. A green rider can probably ride in a jumper show and win, while they’ll probably have to show at there skill level in a hunter ring.
AMEN! I loved this article! it’s soooo true! I know a little girl about 9 or 10 who rode in a hunter course perfectly clean, while someone literally stopped in the middle of the ring and tried to remember her course for 15 MINUTES and then finally finished her course, and others had refusuls and poles knocked down etc! the little girl who went clean got 4th while the retarded course girl placed BEFORE her! I mean what the heck are these “judges” smokin’?? EVENTING RULES! at least we know how to ride and judge!
~Sighs~ Just because she rode a clean course doesn’t mean that the judge liked what s/he saw. The retarted rider probably looked like what the horse and rider combo the s/he prefered. Every judge is different
Paige, every judge is different. Exactly.
I’m sorry if I’m just adding to this nonsense, but I feel that Jumpers is harder than hunters. I’ve done both and hunters seems like a breeze compared to jumpers. I have competively shown in B and C rated shows and won yet the few times I’ve done jumper classes I’ve been completely knocked on my butt. Hunter seems like a good foundation to riding but I feel that it is quite simple and I’m sure that there are some die hard hunters out there to disagee with me but that’s how I feel.
And the sport is completely dependent upon what a judge feels and many judges are biased. So I’ll just stick to my lower level eventing–it seems fun enough!
Thanks Morgan! I would probably do lower-level eventing if I didn’t have olympic goals. I could NEVER do 4 star events!
at my first show i was jumping and the juge did not place me because i was holding the beerin one hand!what da”HELL does that mean!???!!!
Call me crazy but isn’t dressage also judged, for all of you “Eventing is the best” toters.
While you all fight over hunter being a sport or not, and which discipline is “the best” you all fall into what so many of you say to loathe about the hunter world; the back talk and cattiness.
No one said you had to like hunter, but don’t go putting down other disciplines without politely backing up your opinion and respecting that others will disagree. There is NO doubt that hunter has been too watered down, with too slow of a pace and courses that on average lack challenging elements. However many of the senior rated judges and trainers know this and are working to make changes (ie. The High performance hunter derbies) which I think look like loads of fun and are taking hunters back to their grass roots and the Beautiful HAND GALLOP and boldness versus the slow motion almost western lope of the 3 ft hunters.
THat being said something bad could be said about ALL equestrian disciplines. For all the eventing rules people, what about the recent flush of serious accidents and injuries. I started out in eventing and I quit because of fear. Not the fear of the jumps or the challenge of the course, that was fun, I quit because of the fear of jumping SOLID obstacles that don’t fall which often means, either the horse or rider will break before the jumps does. Because any horse I’ve ever had has been a project horse that I have worked with myself to bring along and don’t have a huge income any horse I have isn’t instantly replacable and I don’t like putting them in unnecessary risk. That being said do I think eventers are heartless, no! Not at all, they’re just of a different mindset and that is fine.
I personally show 3’6 hunters on “A” in canada on my $1000 rescued TB. I don’t try to make him move like a warmblood, and I don’t have a big name trainer (or any trainer at all for that matter), I ride boldly and allow my TB move as a TB does. Believe it or not, when we limit our mistakes we place, against the fancy warmbloods.
I have heard the argument many times that judged sports are too subjective, but doesn’t that allow for room for more variety, for a greater variety of horses to win. Of course there will always be politics but if you don’t like it, don’t show it. I am a circuit nobody on a rescued TB and if we place then it’s clearly not entirely run by who you are and who you know. I’ve watched the top horses not place because they have made mistakes and lets not forget that the judge can’t see EVERYTHING from that one vantage point. Sometimes they will see your mistake, and other times they will not. At that level it involves a little luck just as the jumpers do when a rail rolls dangerously to the edge of it’s cups.
MY suggestion for hunter judging is to have 2 judges, one of either side of the ring and to average their scores, or for the judges to have a scribe so that they don’t have to be looking down briefly to write.
Just because gymnastics is judged doesn’t make the gymnast any less of an athlete. And if the competitors are atheletes then I consider it to be a sport!
Equitation is judged, does that mean it isn’t a sport? Dressage is also judged , is that too not a sport?
Yes there are snobs in the hunter ring, there is politics and there is cattiness…. name me one discipline where this doesn’t exist. As I said I am not a known one on the circuit and one week I took my boy down to do teh open conformations against the pros and the warmbloods and couldn’t make it o the weekend to do the ammy owners becasue of work.
I was slightly intimidated by competeing against some grand prix riders on client horses but that faded by their warmness to me for being out there and trying. As I watched a grand prix rider, leave the ring with two deep spots and laughing with the other pro who had gone before him who had the same two bad distances it was established that they needed to take lesson and they joked on about it. As I was about to go in one said to me “Alright it’s all up to you now, someone has to get those two single oxers right”. LOL and I did and they actually cheered and clapped when I decided to ride forward to them and nailed both distances. It was a great atmosphere! I’ve been to “A” shows where the atmosphere is so competitive and unfriendly too. But I figure there is good and bad in everything and you make your decision and you carry on:)
If we’re all genuine horse lovers whose main objective if the happiness and welfare of our horses then we should all get along:)
I have to say any “sport” judges based on someones subjective opinion isn’t a sport.
Personally I feel that all of y’all should shut the hell up. Just because someone wrote an article saying that hunters shouldn’t be considered a sport just because they judge how the horse, well I believe that just unfair. Everyone has there little dislikes on each sport. If someone had wrote an article on how jumpers shouldn’t be considered a sport I’m sure that you would have something to say.
It’s funny that this little article has so many of us talking! My son shows hunter/jumper. It’s good discipline for him, (even though he has a total natural western seat, when riding for pleasure it looks like he’s riding a motorcycle; fast and leaning into the turns all the way).
The show judges are the biggest joke of a scam though. My son does well, but I know he gets points for being a boy. Plus his mare is very fancy, so those two things combined are no doubt more a part of why he ribbons so much.
I like the others have watched countless perfect rides go unrewarded, and politically connected horses and riders ride like hell and win the class.
As a mom, paying for these competitions it enrages me! It brings the filth of Boxing and Don King Fight Fixing into one of the oldest, most esteemed sports in the world. And yeah, a show that’s all hunter, well it’s a heck of a long weekend!
I don’t think this is a ‘which is better’ argument. I loved the experience I gained showing hunters as a young person with my large pony, it was great. As an adult, I’ve moved to jumpers. Here’s the thing- I feel like I have a fairer shot with the jumpers, because its about time and speed. I don’t have the money to invest in the horse or fashion to make it in the hunter ring anymore. Jumpers make us all equal.
Kate, you hit the nail right on the head.
SO why are you guys getting so Katty over the argument over Pleasure versus Speed?
there is no comparison, apples and oranges- I train horses Professionally and I break all kinds, English, western, dressage. I train some barrel horses and jumpers- Now barrel horses and Jumpers are very comparable- Do not knock anything down and go fast. NO wehn I show its mostly, hunters and dressage, because I do not like to go fast or over 3 feet, I find I can train longer If I keep my risk down. Now I also show in AQHA and APHA shows- It is like you guys are being racist against different disaplines- I consider trail riding a sport- it may not be always competitive but get over yourselves- spent less time arguing about it and go ride your horse!- heck all this kattiness gives us non drama queen women a bad name- Ponder this? How many western pleasure horses move on to be good barrel horses? some horses are laid back-0 NOw How many barel hrose will make a good jumper?- many!! all you jumper enthusiast- pick on the barrel racers- and HUnters- go pick on western pleasure horse! LOL- Good luck on the debate
The politics run in every disciple, in every breed, and in nearly every animal when it comes to showing. It’s certainly not limited to hunters.
i personally enjoy hunters, but i’m only riding for leisure. i tried showing, and i agree that the judging system for hunters is stupid, and that’s why it’s just a hobby for me. i’ve always wanted to try legit jumping, but that would be such a hassle trying to find a new barn.
As far as I’m concerned, hunter’s main purpose is to have you focus on your equitation and to learn how to have a correct ride to the fence with a relaxed position and soft hands. After you have the correct position, you are suppose to move on- not stay in hunters forever. (But seriously, how the heck do you people stay sane with just outside line, diagonal, outside line, diagonal?)
Hunter is a sport if it’s judged correctly. Honestly, I don’t think judges should be given a sheet of names to look at. They shouldn’t need that to judge anyways.
As for however said dressage was objectionable- LOL I presume you didn’t hear of the BLM mustang that got some championship award just recently. (Just got the magazine article about it just yesterday so excuse me for not knowing the correct title.)
Dressage judges aren’t told the breed of the horse they are judging. They also must be qualified to judge. I’ve never seen or heard of a judge that judged unfairly (sure, there are some extremely harsh judges out there, but they judge everyone harshly, not just one person or barn.)
I ride in the A and AA circuit hunters and I agree that the judging in the hunters is extremely political. However, the hunters takes a lot of skill to ride in, as does every other discipline of riding though. There is a common misconception that the judging in the hunters is just about looking “pretty.” This is not true. The hunters is judged on soundness and the way of going and how well the HORSE goes around. Equitation is judged on the rider. That being said, unless you are riding a point and shoot pony or horse, there is a lot of details that go into making the hunter course go well. Jumpers, eventing, dressage, etc have their own way of going as well. I think that it is a waste of breath for everyone to argue over which discipline is better. To do well in every discipline you have to have the correct training and be able to execute perfectly to be extremely successful.
THANK YOU for that. Hunters is 100% a joke. I much prefer the jumpers and equitation, though like you said I did do years of hunters on the ponies when I was younger. The horse I’m on right now I’m also showing in the hunters just because he’s an OTTB and used to do adult jumpers and we’re trying to calm him down to do the eq, starting with strait lines first. Of course the judges don’t think much of him
SO true… I am an eventer, but I rode hunters for years (mainly ponies, some horses). As a kid, I never understood why I did so badly on my pony (a paint…), no matter how hard I worked with him, no matter how perfect he was. I finally realized, that unless you have a perfect pony that is universally loved by the judge, you really aren’t going to do all that well in the hunter ring. Yeah, you can ride perfectly and yeah, you can have a perfect horse, but it all comes down to one person’s opinion and whether they like you or not. And why should I let one person’s opinion bring me down? It’s SO pointless… at least in eventing the judges give you feedback and everything, so you know what you can improve on. In hunters you never understand why you pinned or didn’t pin or placed behind a dead lame horse. Also, for some of the people saying that hunters takes a lot of skill to pace your horse, guess what? Consistency and adjustability and keeping a pace is something that ALL disciplines try to achieve, not just hunters…